Seòmar agus comataidhean

Let me cover Mr Sweeney’s points about parliamentary functions. Those functions are already set out in legislation in schedule 3, so the bill does not need to set out that detail, as it is already in legislation.

I recognise that some folk think that co-design is a risk, but it is also a huge opportunity that has not been taken before. In hindsight, it is probably wrong that that opportunity was not taken before, because—as I have said before—during our 20-year journey of legislation, the Parliament has done a lot of good in making changes in health and social care integration, but we still have implementation gaps and postcode lotteries, and many folk out there perceive that we have an unfairness in service delivery. We need to get rid of those implementation gaps, the postcode lotteries and the unfairness. The best people to help us do that are the folk who receive daily care, their carers and staff on the front line. I see co-design as an opportunity, because those folk will be at the heart of it.

As I have said at previous committees, and as I said in my earlier answer to Jeremy Balfour, my door is open. As I have also said to other committees, I will consider the views of committees on how we can be as open and transparent as we possibly can.

As I have said to the committee, I want everybody to be engaged in these processes. I hear what Mr Sweeney has said, and I will reflect on that and consider how we might be able to improve the scrutiny of that as we move forward.

Your clerks could explain them much better than I can. There are processes other than those for affirmative and negative instruments, but I am no expert in them.

All committees have heard some criticisms. Some of those views have come from critical friends. Other people, of course, do not want change. I think that it is fair to say that. However, change is required in relation to a national care service. We cannot continue in the same vein. We have changing demographics and we have a postcode lottery of care in Scotland, which is not good enough. I have to say that the lack of voices of lived experience in some of the committee evidence sessions is frustrating. The voices of those folks who are in receipt of social work and social care help and support are the ones that we need to listen to, because they will rightly point out where the system does not work for them.

We have been on a 20-year journey of health and social care integration; there have been improvements, but there are still implementation gaps. One reason why there are implementation gaps is that we have not listened to people, and we have not let people help us to shape services.

I recognise that some folk do not want this change, but, if you listen to the voices of lived experience, you will hear that many of them are hungry for change. They want rid of the postcode lotteries, and they want those implementation gaps to be plugged and a system that works for them.

I come back to the point that I made to the convener on the system not working for some folk, and I come back to that lad who I talked about earlier who was at risk of offending—he has 15 interventions going on, but it seems that the system does not work for him.

I will answer those points, starting with the point about “churn”, as Mr Greene put it. I agree that there is a lot of churn in social work. I point out—without naming authorities, because it would be a little bit naughty of me to do so—that we know that there are folks who leave one authority to go to another because pay and conditions in the other authority are much better. That causes grief. It means that there are difficulties with recruitment and retention in some parts of the country, because other local authorities pay much more or the conditions there are better. We need to ensure that there is some kind of uniformity, and an improvement, in pay and conditions. I cannot do that at present, because it is not a matter for me.

With regard to the transfer of staff, it is by no means a foregone conclusion that local authorities’ staff, for example, will need to transfer their employment. The Government’s position remains that new local care boards will work collaboratively in partnership with the national health service, local authorities and the third and independent sectors to improve support locally and nationally.

As I have said, we will have the discussion around that with social workers and their professional bodies, and others, as we move forward. However, there is an opportunity for improvement, not only in pay and conditions but in getting career progression right. One of the things that I have been told by care workers, and by social workers, too, is that opportunities for career progression are often not there. We need to do better on that front, for the simple reason that we need to attract more folks into those professions. For young people in particular, a number of whom I have talked to, as you can imagine, while pay and conditions are way up there, career progression, education and continuous professional development are also high on their agenda. We need to get better at that, too, and we have the opportunity to do so.

Derek Feeley concentrated on adult social care in his review, but he also made recommendations about a national social work agency. When we listened to people initially, we found that many folks felt that bringing only adult social care into the national care service could lead to difficulties around transition points and cause problems with linkages, as I have outlined. That is why we consulted about bringing other things into the national care service.

Derek Feeley’s report looked at adult social care in depth, but, if we are to bring community justice and children’s services into the national care service, we recognise that we need to have the evidence base to do that. That is why we are carrying out the research and the options appraisal and, most importantly, why we are listening to stakeholders to establish whether those services should be included in the national care service. As I have already explained to the convener, whether that happens or not, we have to make sure that the linkages are right. The work that we are doing will be of benefit no matter whether the services are in or out of the national care service.

Yes, of course. As I said to the committee earlier, no matter whether they are in or out, we have to ensure that all this gels together. The work is being done to make sure that we get this right for people.

The Government will, as always, look at the consultation responses. Mr MacGregor said that some of the proposals are not popular. I say to him that, in a lot of the conversations that I have had with folk out there, there is popular support for change. I have done a fair amount of talking to front-line social workers. Mr MacGregor has seen me being questioned by folks in the cross-party group on social work.

Many front-line social workers see all this as an opportunity, because they want more freedom and autonomy for the front line and they want the spirit of the Social Work (Scotland) Act 1968 to come into play. At the moment, many of them feel that they are bound by eligibility criteria and by budgets, rather than being able to make the right decisions when it comes to preventative support.

I say to Fulton MacGregor that, although some stakeholders out there do not necessarily favour the proposals, a lot of folk on the front line do favour them. To Mr MacGregor and to the committee as a whole, I say that, as always, we will analyse and look at the consultation responses, and act accordingly.

They do not both need to go.

I will give another example. There has been a lot of discussion at committee about what should be left out of all this. Other things will not be in the NCS but have very clear connections to it. At the Social Justice and Social Security Committee the other week, there was argument from some that housing and homelessness should be in. The Government has not put forward such a proposal. However, we know that there are very clear connections between care, social work and housing—the list goes on.

In that regard, we are ensuring that, whatever is out and whatever is in, the NCS has a clear connection with housing and homelessness. Committee members will understand that, because of my previous role, I have a real desire—it is a necessity—to ensure that all that is absolutely spot-on right. No matter what is out and what is in, those connections must be there.

It is not the case that both justice and children’s services have to go in or stay out.