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I get the gist—thank you.

I turn briefly to Mr Togher, whom I know from another life—it is good to see you, Pat. I would say that some of our previous discussions over the years have been about a lack of co-operation between public bodies to help an individual. Is the legislation enough, or do we need a further cultural shift so that everyone takes ownership of helping individuals?

Good morning. I turn first to Shea Moran, because he stated very clearly that the working groups that he was involved in—the voices of lived experience—feel that elements are missing from the bill. Mr Moran, will you expand on that? What is missing? What is required for the change that you seek? Is it legislation or is it the cultural change that Suzie Mcilloney mentioned in her opening remarks?

What is not right? Is it failures in the legislative framework or is it the interpretation of the legislation, as it stands, by certain bodies? In addition, can we do something with the new piece of legislation to make sure that the kind of uniformity and best practice that you want is exported through good legislation and regulation?

I do not want to put words into your mouth in any way but, when folk come to me with a problem, I often find that the initial problem that they come with is not the real problem at all—I do what we call “the delve” to find out what the underlying problem is. Are you talking about that aspect—that further delve into asking folk what the real difficulties are? Beyond that, is there enough training in trauma-informed practice on the front line to get folk to do that delve and understand what folk are going through?

You are right to point out that it is the Governments that make the decisions. Unfortunately, in my opinion, the UK Government is making all the wrong decisions in all of this.

Do you really think that you have the influence to change minds on these extremely important issues, which are affecting people and institutions and stymieing economic growth? At the end of the day, if we are not attracting the best students here, we do not have the opportunity for them to join our workforce. In the past, many of the people who have come here to study have been some of the greatest minds and entrepreneurs we have had.

I want to follow up Mr McGuire’s point about universities. I represent the great city of Aberdeen, where we have the University of Aberdeen and Robert Gordon University—both very important institutions. The University of Aberdeen has attracted students from overseas for centuries and RGU has done so for many decades. The EU’s youth mobility proposals, which were rejected by Labour and the Tories, are a missed opportunity. We are seeing our university institutions being held back, stymied and, in some cases, put in positions of crisis because of the inability of overseas students to get the relevant visas.

Ms Oldfather talked about the trade agreements with Australia and others. In the past, people were attracted not only from the European Union but particularly from certain places in Africa and Asia, but that seems to have gone. What is the DAG doing to look at that? What engagement have you had with the universities? I have talked about the universities in Aberdeen, but the difficulties and the inability to get students in are the same for universities throughout Scotland and these islands.

You are optimistic in hoping that politics calms down in the UK. There might be chaos for years to come because of the decision to leave the European Union.

In your engagement with academia and the universities on these issues, do they highlight to you the major difficulties that they face because they are unable—well, they are not unable to attract folk—to get folk the necessary paperwork to study in Scotland? What are universities saying to you about their financial positions? Some have lost a huge amount of income because of that. Some have suggested that, if there are no changes, they might be in precarious positions in the future, which they would not be in if we still had free movement.

I am glad that you have managed to help to open one door, but there are still many more doors to open.

Yes, please. It is good to see you.

You mentioned data. We have discussed the fact that there are gaps in data gathering. You said that you are going to take stock of that to see what needs to be done.

I have a question that relates to data, but is also about policy formulation and getting this right. How will you include the voices of lived experience in shaping the future and eradicating the disability employment gap? The voices of lived experience are key, as far as I am concerned. People with lived experience know what works for them, they know what does not work and they know what they want.

We have heard from folks who want their independence and who have aspirations. We have even heard from folk who want to create their own businesses. How do we ensure that their voices are heard? How do you go about listening to them when it comes to data gathering and policy formulation?