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So that hardwiring prevents folks from even being able to consider the question that you asked earlier, which is “Where do you see yourself?” As Carmel McKeogh said earlier, that hardwiring can actually lower the expectations of parents, too. Is that a fair comment?

Angela, do you want to comment on how we get rid of those perceptions?

My final question basically requires a yes or no answer—I think that I can guess which one it will be. There has been a lot of talk about the difficulties with the access to work system. It sounds as though it is very clunky and bureaucratic and that it does not take into account individuals’ needs. Do those who are involved in the access to work system need to listen to the voices of lived experience—whether they be employees or employers—in order to shape a more personalised system that would work much better for all? What do you think—yes or no?

Good morning. I will not keep you too long, because I know that you have been grilled for quite some time this morning.

I want to concentrate on some points that have already been made. Chirsty McFadyen talked about what is in the minds of folks in terms of employers, and Angela Matthews talked about perceptions.

How do we change folks’ minds and employers’ minds? How do we get rid of the perceptions that exist around employing disabled people? What should we do in order to get the voices of lived experience in all that, so that people—employers or employees—can give their positive experiences about work?

Since I mentioned you first, Chirsty, maybe you would like to answer first.

I have been talking about Project Search for quite some time, and we know quite a bit about it, so you do not need to go into depth, but the quote would be useful.

Thank you. Vikki, the last time that I was out with one of your FSB colleagues in my patch in Aberdeen, one of the businesses that we went to was the Bread Maker, which has an immense reputation. It employs a lot of disabled people, and people know that, which I think is very good for the business. The fact that the Bread Maker is such a good employer, along with the quality of its products, attracts a lot of folk.

How does the FSB highlight the major advantages that employing disabled people can bring?

Heather Fisken, are the voices of lived experience extremely important in helping to eradicate some of those perceptions?

That is pretty loud and clear on that front. I thank you all for your time this morning.

I am interested in the voices of lived experience. We were very lucky last week to have a group of folk who told it like it was, which was beneficial to all. It is key that all of us listen to people about their experiences in order to improve.

Alasdair Scott mentioned Project Search earlier, and Philip Ritchie just mentioned it. One of the positives from last week’s discussion was the high opinion of Project Search. In my consistency in Aberdeen, Project Search is run by the University of Aberdeen and backed by the likes of Values into Action Scotland. It has immense outcomes, with folk going into work and, in the main, staying in work. Why do we not learn from the experiences of Project Search and create more of those types of schemes throughout the country?

Does anyone else want to come in on that?