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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 15 July 2025
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Displaying 1138 contributions

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Education, Children and Young People Committee

Additional Support for Learning Inquiry

Meeting date: 20 March 2024

Willie Rennie

I think that your approach is good. I think that you know that things are difficult and really bad just now. I have been really worried by the written evidence—probably even more than by the oral evidence. The situation is pretty tough, and a lot of people are really feeling it.

Are you concerned that we are in danger of pitting pupils with additional support needs against other pupils because of the huge demands on the time of teachers and assistants, and that that will inevitably lead to others losing out? Are you worried about the atmosphere that is being created in the classroom, with some pupils losing out because there is a drive—quite rightly—towards inclusion? Are you concerned that that is happening?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Additional Support for Learning Inquiry

Meeting date: 20 March 2024

Willie Rennie

Of course, resources are part of that, and you have identified a number of different funds, but you are also indicating that there is something beyond money that can change in schools to make things better.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Additional Support for Learning Inquiry

Meeting date: 20 March 2024

Willie Rennie

So, we know what that is, do we? If so, why is it not being rolled out? Why is it not being embraced as we would want it to be?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Additional Support for Learning Inquiry

Meeting date: 20 March 2024

Willie Rennie

I am talking about specialist environments, specialist schools and specialist places. Is the line in the appropriate place?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Additional Support for Learning Inquiry

Meeting date: 20 March 2024

Willie Rennie

The two issues are closely connected. I am worried that that situation, if left to fester, could create more of a division.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Additional Support for Learning Inquiry

Meeting date: 20 March 2024

Willie Rennie

I am sure that it did, but I know that John Swinney was insistent.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Additional Support for Learning Inquiry

Meeting date: 20 March 2024

Willie Rennie

Although the tone and the approach today have been very good—I think that you understand how serious the matter is, cabinet secretary—it would be remiss of us not to express the anger and frustration that exist out there. A lot of parents are really angry, and teachers are giving up. They have had enough, and they feel as if they are on the front line without adequate support. They really feel it.

I was struck by the remarks from the Scottish Children’s Services Coalition, which hinted not only at the overall effectiveness of the policy but at whether mainstreaming is working at all. It also drew a correlation between poorer neighbourhoods and areas of the country and a higher proportion of additional support needs.

Something that came out in the absence statistics that were published yesterday was the absence rate in poorer areas. That affects Government policy in so many different ways. If we are going to close the poverty-related attainment gap and reduce inequalities, we have to get to grips with additional support needs for the sake of not just those pupils but the country as a whole and its performance.

It is important that you understand that there is a lot of anger and frustration. Although today’s tone has, I think, been the right one, because it has been serious, there is a lot of anger.

I go back to my original point. I worry that those on the front line, whether they are parents, teachers or pupils, are the ones who are suffering. We have a policy that we like, but they suffer if it is not working, and I worry about the divisions that are created on the back of that.

Do you want to comment on the absence stats or on the remarks from the Scottish Children’s Services Coalition, or on anything else, just so that people understand that you get it?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Additional Support for Learning Inquiry

Meeting date: 20 March 2024

Willie Rennie

There is no doubt that things have got worse since the pandemic, but the stresses were already being felt quite considerably before the pandemic.

My other question is about where we draw the line with regard to who is in mainstream education and who is in a specialist environment and whether we are getting that right. Do you think we have the plan for the numbers and types of specialist places right? Is the balance appropriate, and do we have sufficient specialisms?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Additional Support for Learning Inquiry

Meeting date: 20 March 2024

Willie Rennie

I was quite struck by the statement made by the representative of speech and language therapists. He said that the current model is not working, that there is, as you have rightly identified, a wide spectrum of additional support needs and that we cannot expect teachers to know absolutely everything about every specialism, so experts are needed to help teachers with those pupils, and teachers then gain knowledge from that. He also said that speech and language therapists are much less involved in the classroom than they used to be. From what you have seen, is there the right level of specialist input just now?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Additional Support for Learning Inquiry

Meeting date: 20 March 2024

Willie Rennie

Thank you.