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So, there were five or six months in which people were potentially leaving the organisation. Are you able to quantify how many?

Have you seen any effect on recruitment with the further delay and the decision in June not to bring in the legislation for a period, or has that just compounded the same issue?

Yes, it is just a quick one. Fiona Robertson, you said that we should not draw comparisons between now and prior to the pandemic but that you are confident that things have got better. Is that not a contradiction?

Has this come up?

Do you not think that it should? There is a big gap between the wealthier areas and the poorer areas. Should that not be on your red risk register?

That is helpful. Thank you.

I am finding this meeting a bit difficult, because what is being said does not match what I hear from teachers and parents. It all sounds very process driven, which—I understand—is your job. I will read one quote from the report on the national discussion on Scottish education that I think really cuts to the chase. I have abridged it. It says:

“In my class of 30, 4 have ASD ... 3 have longstanding separation anxiety difficulties ... one has been adopted, one has a difficult home life and experiencing a form of trauma, one is a young carer, 2 others have severe learning difficulties (not including the 8 with ‘normal’ behind-track difficulties). There is only one of me—I can’t give those 12 children enough of my attention to support their wellbeing, never mind ... the other 18”.

Fran Foreman said that this is not just about the number of teachers. No matter how brilliant the teacher is, how can she cope with that class?

There is only one of her in the class.

I know that you are not. I am trying to tease the issue out, because that is a feeling that is around.

Can I tease this out? Some teachers take exception to people who say that the behaviour of our young people is a mirror of the adult—the teacher or staff member. They take exception to that because it is almost like blaming them. I know that that is about behaviour rather than additional support needs, but there is some correlation between the two. You are saying that, with the support and training that is available, we can change the performance of the teachers and staff. How do we know when we are unreasonably blaming the staff, including the teachers? When can we go further? How do we deal with that challenge? In the current discussion, some teachers are feeling put upon. That is what I am hearing—tell me if I am wrong. Does that make sense?