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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 11 February 2026
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Displaying 1429 contributions

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Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Professor Alexis Jay and the Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs

Meeting date: 17 December 2025

Willie Rennie

Did you not advise the First Minister to say this yesterday? Why have you said it today? Why did you not say it yesterday or the previous week? I cannot believe that it has been decided overnight. You must have come to the conclusion earlier to be more up front about what happened and your regrets about the process.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Professor Alexis Jay and the Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs

Meeting date: 17 December 2025

Willie Rennie

That is not quite the same thing. You have to admit that there has been a series of errors. It is not just about the original one, which we can understand because, as you say, we all have to correct the record at different times. However, a series of mistakes were made following that, which even allowed the First Minister to say something different yesterday from what you have said today. That is what we are questioning.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Professor Alexis Jay and the Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs

Meeting date: 17 December 2025

Willie Rennie

Okay. Thank you.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 3 December 2025

Willie Rennie

Amendment 37, in my name, seeks provide that the chair of the Funding Council’s apprenticeship committee should be an employer or someone who represents the views and interests of employers.

I have set out arguments in the debates on previous groups about the role of employers in the new system. We know that there is anxiety among employers about the abolition of SAAB and the transfer to a single source of funding from SDS. My proposed provision would help to build confidence among employers that their voice was valued and heard. It would ensure that their unique expertise and insight were brought into the system as the policy was developed. I encourage members to support amendment 37.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 3 December 2025

Willie Rennie

I want to challenge amendments 14, 14A, 14B and 15. Universities Scotland has serious concerns about all those amendments; it believes that they would threaten ONS classification.

In relation to amendments 14, 14A and 14B, the Funding Council already has powers to request information, and its external auditors already produce annual accounts that are then shared with it. Amendments 14, 14A and 14B would introduce greater reach but also a lack of clarity. In particular, the phrase,

“where it considers it necessary to do so”,

is very vague; it needs to be much more specific to avoid overreach.

Members will know that ONS classification is based not on whether powers are actually used but on the possibility of powers being used. Therefore, even if the powers are used only on very rare occasions, the fact that they can be used is, in itself, a threat to ONS classification.

On amendment 15—

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 3 December 2025

Willie Rennie

Certainly.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 3 December 2025

Willie Rennie

I think that that is the case. The strength of the opposition from Universities Scotland should make us think. I take on board Ross Greer’s point that it has, in the past, made such warnings, and those warnings have not come to fruition. However, that does not mean that we should carry on relentlessly increasing the powers of the Funding Council and our reach into that space. At some point, the cumulative effect might affect ONS classification.

Douglas Ross is right about there being a lack of clarity with regard to exactly where the trigger is. That has been tested, to some degree, through the use of the section 25 powers in the 2005 act. Over time, through the use of those powers, ministers have gradually become much more explicit in their direction to universities. Things ebbed and flowed with Dundee, but, nevertheless, the lack of specificity in this respect is a problem. That is why I would encourage members not to move amendments 14, 14A, 14B and 15.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 3 December 2025

Willie Rennie

Yes.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 3 December 2025

Willie Rennie

I think that such an approach will give false confidence, because I am not confident that the SFC will have the wherewithal and the expertise to interpret how the institution is performing, beyond what the external auditors, the court and the senate are already scrutinising. If we introduce the proposed powers, there is a danger that they could not only threaten ONS classification but give the public a belief that we are on top of this, when, in fact, the SFC might have no more ability to understand how the university in question is functioning or should function. Therefore, I think that we should rely on the existing mechanisms to provide that challenge and ensure that these institutions, which are, in many cases, too big to fail, do not fail in the end.

We, and the public, will be more alert. The court, the senate and the external auditors will have learned from the Dundee experience, and they will provide greater challenge. That should not mean that there should be a guarantee that the Government has a right to interfere or a compulsion to do so.

I will conclude on that point.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 3 December 2025

Willie Rennie

If the minister has finished with Jackie Dunbar’s amendments, I want to make a point about my amendments 31 to 33. They are not about limiting fees, but about having special recognition for managing agents. Currently, that sort of recognition does not exist, so the amendments seek to include those agents in the bill. Will the minister address that point, or can we have a discussion about it afterwards?