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Does anyone else want to come in?

My final question is about the financial memorandum. The issue of pensions liabilities and insurance for staff was also raised at the Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee. Given that we are talking about 75,000 people being transferred from all 32 local authorities to a national care service, has there been any discussion about what that will look like from the point of view of the potential cost and liability, which, currently, has not been outlined by the Government?

Good morning to the panel and thank you for joining us.

I will follow up on some of the questions that the Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy highlighted in its submission. The CIPFA directors of finance argue that the issues facing the current system are a product of underfunding by the Scottish Government. However, the same submission states that councils are now spending around 20 per cent more on adult social care and children’s services than they did 10 years previously.

Audit Scotland’s assessment is that

“the pace of change has been slow. The performance of current services is variable and there are significant service areas that are not meeting expectations”.

In the light of those two statements, do the witnesses want to comment on the current situation and the impact that a national care service is likely to have on it?

I agree with all those concerns. Given the specific pressures that Edinburgh faces with delayed discharge—I think that almost half of all delayed discharge is here in the capital—and homelessness, such as the number of children in temporary accommodation, the restructuring cannot help to tackle those problems at this moment.

From the earlier panel of witnesses, we heard about the challenges that are likely to come from transferring 75,000 local authority staff to a new national care service. Specifically, they raised a concern about pensions. That issue did not necessarily exist with the centralisation of the police and fire services in 2013. What lessons have been learned from the creation of a national police service and fire service? What pitfalls are we seeing with the creation of a national care service?

Some of my questions around the impact that the bill will have on homelessness prevention legislation have been touched on, but I want to expand on third sector involvement. At the time of the integration of health and social care, one of the key criticisms that we heard was that the third sector was not at the table and therefore did not have a chance to influence decision making. Do you think that that has changed with regard to the early stages of the development of the national care service?

Thank you.

I thank the witnesses for joining us. As an Edinburgh MSP, I was particularly concerned by the fears expressed in the City of Edinburgh Council’s submission that,

“in the short to medium term, the Bill risks making service delivery significantly worse”.

I am acutely aware of the social care crisis that we have in the capital but what disruptions could arise as a result of the bill and what is the Scottish Government telling councils to allay those fears?

I will bring in Paula McLeay as I mentioned Edinburgh.

In terms of being able to get housing into the discussion, where do you think that that can now take place, or is it just not going to happen?

The national care service will be a huge top-down reform. We saw similar reforms when Police Scotland and the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service were created ten years ago. What learning has taken place, in Government, from the mistakes that happened ten years ago, and will those be repeated in this national, centralised service?

That is a lot.