Seòmar agus comataidhean

I think that this is one of those situations in which broadcasting is pressing one button to allow Jon to speak and Jon is pressing another one to allow himself to speak, and it is cancelling the permission that broadcasting has given him to speak. Can you hear us, Jon?

Good morning and welcome to the 32nd meeting in 2024 of the Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee.

Our first item of business is a decision on taking business in private. Do members agree to take in private item 3, which is consideration of the evidence heard on the Land Reform (Scotland) Bill; item 4, which is consideration of the recommended candidates for appointment to the Scottish Land Commission; item 5, which is consideration of the committee’s work programme; and item 6, which is consideration of the committee’s pre-budget scrutiny letter?

Members indicated agreement.

Hold that thought. You will get Mark Ruskell’s question on it in a minute.

I go back to the point about thresholds and community consultation. I accept the point that Josh Doble made about the fact that, if someone has a relatively large estate, they are probably already drawing up plans. During our visits, the committee saw some very useful plans that were drawn up by Buccleuch estates and Atholl Estates, which have put those out to the community. In some other places that we visited, we did not seen any plans. We have had a lot of talk about plans that are being developed.

Dropping the threshold to 500 hectares has been mentioned. With regard to small farmers, I think about all the things that I have to do, such as carbon budgets, soil testing maps, herd health plans, Scottish Quality Crops plans, Quality Meat Scotland plans for the livestock and all the other issues that I have to address in order to get my single farm payment or basic support payments—there are quite a lot of plans. You are suggesting that those people put their plans to the local community.

I have watched Forestry and Land Scotland carry out community consultations on forest plans. I am worried about the level of consultation that you think that small farmers and small landowners should do and how much that is going to cost them. You might like to see that. What level of consultation will be required? How many meetings will people have to hold? Who will they have to publicise the plans to? What will be the costs to individuals of drawing up the plans?

I think that you referred to land agents at some stage. I was a land agent at one point and I know that engaging with the local community—writing to it and meeting it—involved hours of work. I am sure that the pittance that I was paid when I was a land agent has gone up. The rate for a professional land agent is now probably not far off £250 an hour, so drawing up a plan could mean costs of £3,000 or £4,000 to carry out a community engagement exercise. Is that a reasonable cost for small family farms given that, in some years, it will be more than the profit that they make from agricultural operations?

The question is, that amendment 3 be agreed to. Are we agreed?

Members: No.

The result of the division is: For 4, Against 3, Abstentions 0.

Amendment 29 agreed to.

There will be a division.

For

Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)

Against

Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)

As no one else wants to contribute to the debate, I call the cabinet secretary.

The question is, that amendment 63 be agreed to. Are we agreed?

Members: No.

The question is, that amendment 25 be agreed to. Are we agreed?

Members: No.