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Will you take an intervention?

I thank the minister for taking an intervention. As he said, we have discussed this matter, and he copied me into the letter that he sent to the committee. When might the minister launch a consultation on dual mandates, if he plans to do that?

Is there a danger that, with all these welcome consultations, it could look like the Government is trying to park issues and kick them into the long grass? I think that Ben Macpherson is right that, if the matters are not dealt with in the bill, we might need another bill in the next session of Parliament, and it could be many years before there is any action on the issues.

Over the parliamentary sessions, the number of MSPs who are MPs has tailed off, so we have a small number, and the number of MSPs who are also councillors has increased. I was a councillor, so that included me. In every election, quite a large number of the people who are elected to the Scottish Parliament are councillors at the time of election. Therefore, the minister’s point, namely that to do anything about councillors now would be wrong, is well made, so I do not intend to move amendment 3.

I heard what the minister said, I have seen his letter and I have reflected on what he said. I have also reflected on what he has said today, which is that he wants to launch a consultation in this parliamentary session. That is very useful. I am of the clear view that that is the right thing to do. To ban dual mandates for MSPs sitting as MPs—and in the House of Lords, although I will come on to talk about that—is the right thing to do. I think that it is what the public would expect us to do. I think that they expect people to behave in the right way, which means that, if you are elected to two places, you should make the choice between Westminster and here. Bringing that into law would bring us in line with Wales and Northern Ireland. Why should Scotland be an outrider?

I do not think that it is that complicated—it is quite an easy issue—but I accept that there ought to be some consultation. I think that I have the public pulse on the issue, but this bill might not be the place to do that. On that basis, I do not intend to move these amendments. I had intended to move them but, having heard from the minister earlier, I feel that, if he is going to move at pace with that consultation, I am happy not to do so. Unfortunately, that will take us into the next parliamentary session, which means that, if people who are MPs are elected to the Scottish Parliament in 2026, they will not have to resign. I am sure that we can all think of potential candidates. I will not name anyone, but I am sure that we have got people in mind. That would be unfortunate, but I accept what the minister is saying.

On the amendments that relate to the House of Lords, my amendment 2 would make provision that a member of the House of Lords could stand for election to the Scottish Parliament and that, if they were elected, they could either resign or take a leave of absence. That is what Katy Clark has done, and I think that she has done the right thing. My proposal would put that option in law. Because Ross Greer’s amendment goes further than that, I have to say that I disagree with him on this one. I think that we should allow the Katy Clark position to become a matter of law.

I leave it there, convener.

I am listening very carefully to this, as I am a big fan of STV and have been a councillor who was elected under STV. If you are elected under STV—you can correct me if I have got you wrong—it means that people have had to vote for you individually, unlike those who are elected under the list system, which includes you and me. Nobody voted to get me, personally, into the Scottish Parliament, but people have to vote for individual councillors. If you want to get re-elected, you have to work your socks off and prove to people that you deserve their vote.

The STV system establishes a link between the electors and the individual, not the party, and that is similarly true in a by-election. By not having a by-election, you get rid of that and almost go back to the party list system, which puts the power into the hands of parties. That seems to me to be entirely wrong.

Thank you, convener. I will start by saying that the value of stage 2 is having the ability to raise issues such as the ones that my three amendments raise. The issues have not come out of the blue; they have come up before. Dual mandate was mentioned in the committee’s report, which was very good, and, when I spoke in the stage 1 debate, I was very honest—as I always am—in saying that there are different views on dual mandate, including in my party, but it is entirely right that we have a discussion about that.

If you will permit me, I have from the Scottish Parliament information centre a list of MSPs who have had dual mandate. The list is available to anyone. I am going to go through that list all the way from session 1, because people will find it interesting. It is quite a long list, and it is going to take me a bit of time, but I will read more quickly than I normally speak.

I just found it fascinating.

In session 1, a number of MSPs were also members of the House of Lords: James Douglas-Hamilton, David Steel and Mike Watson. As you would expect, quite a lot of MSPs were also MPs in session 1. The list is as follows: Malcolm Chisholm, Roseanna Cunningham, Donald Dewar, Margaret Ewing, Sam Galbraith, Donald Gorrie, John Home Robertson, John McAllion, Henry McLeish, Alasdair Morgan, Alex Salmond, John Swinney, Jim Wallace and Andrew Welsh.

In session 2, a couple of MSPs were members of the House of Lords—James Douglas-Hamilton and Mike Watson. I do not see any who were also MPs during that session, but we start to see councillors coming through. Those who were MSPs and councillors were Andrew Arbuckle, Charlie Gordon and Mike Pringle.

In session 3, a number of MSPs were members of the House of Lords: George Foulkes, Jack McConnell and Nicol Stephen. Some MSPs were MPs: Margaret Curran, Cathy Jamieson and Alex Salmond. The ones who were councillors in session 3 were Willie Coffey, Jim Hume, Bill Kidd, John Wilson, Nigel Don and—apologies, as I cannot pronounce the name—Stefan Tymkewycz.

The list for session 4 is quite long. The list of MSPs who were also in the Lords consisted of Annabel Goldie. The list of MSPs who were councillors was as follows: George Adam, Clare Adamson, Jayne Baxter, Colin Beattie, Lesley Brennan, Neil Bibby, Willie Coffey, Mary Fee, Neil Findlay, John Finnie, Mark Griffin, Cara Hilton, Jim Hume, Alison Johnstone, Colin Keir, Richard Lyle, Angus MacDonald, Derek Mackay, Hanzala Malik, Mark McDonald, Margaret McDougall, Anne McTaggart, John Pentland, Alex Rowley, Kevin Stewart, David Torrance, Jean Urquhart and Bill Walker.

In session 5, the MSPs who were also MPs at some point were Douglas Ross and Ross Thomson. The list of MSPs who were also councillors is actually a very long list, so I will not go through it, but I think—

Mr Wallace, most people have contact with their councils, and councils are now moving more and more to online services. However, there were some comments in the report that I want to put to you.

Exhibit 2, which the deputy convener referred to earlier, says:

“People find it difficult to apply for council tax reductions, as some councils have moved the application process online.”

If people are not online or struggle to use the internet, they find it difficult. The report goes on to say:

“Parents and carers can find it difficult to use digital apps now commonly required to support their child’s education.”

Paragraph 54 says:

“Increased digitalisation of customer services can provide opportunities for people to use self-service options for routine tasks. However poorly planned digital services can disadvantage vulnerable people. Some council services that citizens frequently find difficult to access include: the Blue Badge scheme ... council housing adaptations”

and

“cost of living support and guidance.”

Do you accept all that?

My in-laws, who have sadly passed away, were never online. I do not know how they managed, but, somehow, they got by, and there must be a number of people in that position. Mr Beattie mentioned that earlier. People either do not want to be online or just cannot get online. For council services, it is really important that you cater for those people.

That is very useful in setting out where members of the public can interact digitally. I am glad that you mentioned the health service, because I wish that there was some digital inclusion in the health service. Generally, we are a bit behind the curve in Scotland. [Interruption.] Hang on—I have not finished.

You mentioned work with NHS Lanarkshire. One of the frustrations—certainly for me—is the inability to book a medical appointment or interact with a general practitioner online. Many GPs do not offer that service, so I am interested in what you have to say about NHS Lanarkshire. Will you provide more details of that work?