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Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee
Meeting date: 8 March 2022
Graham Simpson
We can maybe look at that.
A general question is that the bill covers a wide range of areas, from education, tenancy rights and justice to health matters. Why did you put all that in one bill and not split it up? Some things in the bill are quite far reaching. For example, on tenancy rights, you could argue that what is in the bill has nothing to do with public health and everything to do with tenancy rights and changing rental law in this country. Why not introduce a separate bill on that? Work is already going on in the area and consultations are out there. Why not do it in that way?
Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee
Meeting date: 8 March 2022
Graham Simpson
You are in front of me and he is not. I am asking you about your bill.
I have two more short questions. I will put something to you because of your response to the convener’s question about the power to release people from prison early. He said—rightly—that that related just to Covid but that the rest of the bill is rather wider. I will read out something that you say in the delegated powers memorandum; I am not really commenting on it, but I found it curious. In your justification for using delegated powers, you say:
“In addition to Covid, there have been relatively recent outbreaks of new diseases, SARS and MERS, and instances of contamination, such as Salisbury.”
The Salisbury situation was limited to Salisbury. Why is that in there?
Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee
Meeting date: 8 March 2022
Graham Simpson
I am sorry, convener—I asked about a specific aspect of the bill, and I do not think that the Deputy First Minister has addressed that point. The point is—
Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee
Meeting date: 8 March 2022
Graham Simpson
There has never been a need for that. You have relied on guidance. Why can you not rely on that?
Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee
Meeting date: 8 March 2022
Graham Simpson
I want to go back to the point about freeing prisoners early, because I am genuinely struggling to understand the logic of your position, Mr Swinney. Obviously, we do not want to be in the position of freeing people early, but your position appears to be that, if that is Covid related, we should consider doing that, and if it is not Covid related, we should not consider it.
Earlier, I read out a quote from your delegated powers memorandum. I will read out another bit:
“Delegated powers are appropriate to deal with future public health threats that could pose a significant risk to human health as they are, by their nature, unpredictable and sometimes unforeseeable.”
Your rationale for the entire bill is that the powers are needed because we do not know what will happen in the future; that could be the stuff that you listed in that document or something else. However, when it comes to releasing prisoners early, you want to restrict that power just to Covid-related matters. There appears to be no logic to that.
Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee
Meeting date: 8 March 2022
Graham Simpson
It is an illogical position. It would be more logical to remove that provision entirely from the bill.
Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee
Meeting date: 8 March 2022
Graham Simpson
Did the instrument appear in the committee papers a couple of weeks ago, or was that something similar?
Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee
Meeting date: 8 March 2022
Graham Simpson
I would not expect you to do that. I am trying to get to a point where we move on from our report and your response. The committee said that, when you use the made affirmative procedure, there should be a statement as to why you believe that the matter is urgent. In your response, you say:
“My view is that the Scottish Government already provides a clear explanation of its rationale for urgency”.
However, you go on to say that you are
“happy to work with the Committee to consider how that could be better codified in practice”.
I am keen to find out how we can work together to get to a point at which you provide something that is, in my view, better than what you do at the moment, and we have a proper explanation of why something is urgent.
Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee
Meeting date: 8 March 2022
Graham Simpson
In my final question, I will go back to what I asked you about last week—the regulations to close school boarding and student accommodation. Last week, we spoke about your desire for that power to last for an extra six months, even though the Government has never used it. Now you want to have that power permanently. How do you justify having that power permanently when it has never been used or needed?
Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee
Meeting date: 8 March 2022
Graham Simpson
Having gone through the letter that the committee received from you yesterday, it seems to me that its general tone, and your view, appears to be that the Scottish Government is not doing much wrong in respect of the made affirmative procedure. Considering the committee’s report and the debate that we had in the chamber, I was—I will be honest—disappointed when I read the letter, as you do not seem to accept much of what the committee said. If you think that I have got that wrong, please say so.