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Over what period?

I am happy to look into that and write back to the committee, if that would be helpful, but I am not aware of any. Had there been any, they would have stood out and I would certainly have drawn on them in the financial memorandum.

Pulling together a financial memorandum of this type is difficult—not only is it unprecedented, but the data and precedent that you would normally rely on invariably are not there. Because it is anticipated that the process would be embedded within health and care, it is also difficult to distinguish it from things that are already happening in health and care provision.

Given the situation that I have described for somebody who is being supported by CHAS—as I say, they may very well have a wider cohort of medics already involved—that process will be more complex, involved and costly. On whether that needs to be reflected in guidance or should rest on the judgment of medical professionals, much of the bill rests on the judgment of medical professionals, and second-guessing that is dangerous and something that I do not think that legislation should seek to do.

However, the whole process will be very different for an individual of the type that CHAS supports than for somebody in their 60s, 70s or 80s. Those people will almost certainly have medical professionals who have been involved in their care over a prolonged period, but the extent to which the process needs to be supported will be different. These are people who are reaching the end of life, so there may be a series of comorbidities and all the rest of it. The judgment that people exercise and their involvement in medical decisions around their treatment will be handled differently than they will be for young people in their late teens.

I would certainly acknowledge that. Training will be crucial, but we are not reinventing the wheel here, as many of the materials and whatnot exist in other jurisdictions, so we will be able to draw on them as and when appropriate.

On-costs are very difficult to calculate. Even the Government finds it difficult to calculate and express on-costs in financial memoranda for its own bills. That is not necessarily a criticism; it is simply a reflection of the fact that, if you are going to include figures in a financial memorandum, you need to be reasonably confident about the basis on which you are doing so.

It is not unreasonable to say that, if training and support will be required to accompany the provision of the service, that will have a knock-on impact, but that will be happening all the time anyway. One would like to think that, whatever pathway a patient is on—whether that involves curative treatment or palliative treatment—the continuity of care will be such that the provision of treatment will be made as smooth as possible. There will be an opportunity to look at that on an annual basis and to see, as part of a five-year review, whether things have happened that were not necessarily anticipated or whether a shift has taken place in where the pressures arise and, if so, how we can address that.

The individual circumstances will drive what those savings might be to such a large extent. We do not look at it that way just now in relation to people moving between curative and palliative pathways. The bill is looking to build in something that will become part of the end-of-life options. As I said, it was felt impossible to come up with a figure that would be in any way meaningful. There is not a precedent or a model to draw on.

Even in those jurisdictions where this option has been in place over a lengthy period, there will be differences in terms of pension arrangements, healthcare costs and all the rest of it. However, I am not aware of statistics that show what those savings were. I suspect that it is because they have been redirected into the provision of other care within hospitals or within hospices.

Yes, and that is the point: there is a gearing up. To some extent, it is a question of the time period for implementation. As I have said, there seems to be a wide variety in that respect, with the implementation period ranging from six months to 18 months, two years or more. It will not surprise you to hear that the chief medical officer is keen for it to be at the longer rather than the shorter end, which I absolutely understand.

I am conscious that, if the Parliament were to pass the bill, we would not want to delay it unduly, because I routinely hear stories from people who are desperate for the process to be introduced as quickly as possible. However, I do not think that we do the public or the medical profession any favours by not ensuring that the systems and training and so on are in place as robustly as possible at the point of introduction. Over time—again, this is what has been seen elsewhere—confidence grows among medical professionals to get involved, so the numbers go up. Even if they are not necessarily actively involved year to year, the number of people who are involved in the system as a whole continues to rise, as does confidence among the wider public. However, as much as there is public support for the option and as many terminally ill patients are desperate for it to be available, it is not surprising that some will want to see how it beds in and works in practice before deciding whether it is for them.

Again, those are interesting and legitimate questions to raise. I would probably question whether it is the antithesis of the Hippocratic oath. I am not a medical professional, but I have spoken to many who do not see it in those terms. To be involved in helping to manage and end a patient’s suffering, whether it is pain or existential suffering, is something that they feel is consistent with the oath that they have taken.

This might be a small step in terms of the cohort and the numbers that might be involved, but I do not underestimate the extent to which it is a significant step for the medical professional and society. It has always struck me that public support for the choice has been consistently and overwhelmingly strong for many years now, but there is a difference when you are making a decision as legislators to change the law. You weigh up a series of different factors, and it is not as simple as saying whether you are in favour of or against something. Those who are making the arguments on both sides of the debate come from similar places in terms of what they want to see and their compassion and care for the best interests of patients and the vulnerable, but they come to different conclusions about how that is to be achieved.

Those discussions are already happening, and not just because of my bill, although I think that it has acted as a bit of an accelerant. They are taking place in the palliative sector and the hospice sector. I spoke at the Hospice UK conference at the end of last month and it was clear that, in the staff rooms in hospice communities, discussions are taking place not just among the medical staff but among the wider hospice community about what it is to be patient centred and to give patients as much control and autonomy as possible to recognise their needs.

I think that I have exhausted any and all speaking notes that I might have had, convener. Thank you very much.

As I said before, the bill does not place a duty on anybody to provide the service. There is a robust conscientious objection provision in the proposed legislation. Unless and until medics have the training that they require in order to carry this out, they will not be in a position to carry it out even if they want to. The proposed legislation does not create a right; it sets a legal framework within which the service can take place. However, if a person is unable to access two medical professionals who are able to provide the service, which I think would be more of an issue in the early years after introduction, that will be a barrier and impediment to accessing it.

The number of medical professionals who would be involved is relatively small. I looked at the figures for Victoria and for Queensland, which in both instances are just south of 400—I think that 380 and 390 medics, respectively, are registered to provide the service there. The number of those who have actively provided it is down around 300; in Queensland, over the course of 2023-24, that number was about 120. The numbers are not huge.

I understand the issue that you are raising about postcode lotteries. This service, like so many others, would need to reflect the different circumstances and challenges that there are in delivering health and care services in different parts of the country. I see daily in my constituency and region the ways in which services delivered there look and feel different, because they have to be different. Health boards, either independently or acting in unison with others in the region, would need to decide how they would deliver the service in a way that met patient needs and reflected their circumstances. I cannot see health boards opting out of providing the service, but I see them having sufficient latitude to determine how best it could be delivered in a way that fitted with the provision of other health and care services.

As I said, the proposal is embedded in the existing health and care infrastructure. That distinguishes it from previous bills of this type. I think that that helps to provide some reassurance because of the safeguards that are already there—the transparency, reporting requirements and all the rest of it. That also means that it needs to reflect how the delivery of health and care can differ across the country.

There are provisions in the financial memorandum for oversight, and not just of individuals. I would expect that to be a requirement of how organisations are governed. They would need to be governed in accordance with the law and the guidance as those stand. As guidance develops and secondary legislation comes through, regulators and professional bodies would need to adapt their own guidance and orders to reflect that. In fact, they would have had input into the law and guidance.