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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 22 April 2025
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Displaying 1878 contributions

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Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 31 October 2024

Bob Doris

Mr Balfour, if you really want me to do this, I will be happy to look at the Official Report for those occasions either in the chamber or in committee when you have questioned why we were building the system in the first place, and scrutinised the cost of the system and said that it might be more affordable and cheaper simply to run it from Westminster. If you have not said that, I will happily apologise, but I think that that has been a pretty consistent position of yours.

However, let us not personalise this issue between us. I am trying to make the point that there is a balance to be struck between having a flexible system and a system that provides value for money, that is cost-effective and which delivers the policies that we intend to deliver. That is the only point that I was trying to make, Mr Balfour, so I offer my apologies—I did not mean to trigger you with my contribution.

I thought that Katy Clark’s contribution was incredibly helpful. I hope that I am capturing correctly what she said, but she asked what more could have been done in spite of the decision from Westminster. That speaks to mitigations—although I will not mention them, as I want to stay away from the politics of this.

Katy Clark also asked what more could be done once the Barnett consequentials become clear. Again, that points to an uncertainty in the Scottish budget, not just until the Chancellor of the Exchequer gets to their feet, but until the consequences are known.

We are where we are, and we all understand why that is the case. This is not really a moment for politics—my understanding is that we do not pass—

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 31 October 2024

Bob Doris

As no other members wish to contribute, I will take the opportunity to make a few remarks myself. I wish to reflect on Mr Balfour’s comments about whether the system could be designed to be more flexible—in effect, designing a targeted system that could respond if such an eventuality as the one that we are discussing should happen.

I am just thinking about the politics of this. I say this genuinely and sincerely to Mr Balfour, but had the Scottish Government spent money putting in place a system that could change winter fuel payments to make them a targeted, rather than a universal, payment, some members of the committee—possibly Mr Balfour—would have been wringing their hands about the additional costs that that would incur, and they would have said that it must mean that the Scottish Government intended to move towards a targeting policy.

Perhaps I am being unfair to Mr Balfour, but in the past he has always made it clear that perhaps we do not need a Scottish social security system, and that we should deliver all social security benefits from Westminster—

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 31 October 2024

Bob Doris

As there are no further questions, we move to agenda item 3. I call the cabinet secretary to move the motion, and to speak to it, should she wish to do so.

Motion moved,

That the Social Justice and Social Security Committee recommends that the Winter Heating Assistance (Pension Age) (Scotland) Regulations 2024 [draft] be approved.—[Shirley-Anne Somerville]

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 31 October 2024

Bob Doris

From what I can see, there are no more questions from members—[Interruption.] Oh! I hear that that might not be the case. There was nothing in my chat box, but Kevin Stewart’s name has appeared twice now. Mr Stewart, over to you.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 31 October 2024

Bob Doris

That might be helpful for future scrutiny. I appreciate that. We move on to questions from Jeremy Balfour.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 31 October 2024

Bob Doris

Mr O’Kane, before you come back in, I note that we are moving slightly away from the regulations. I will not prevent you from coming back in, but I note that Marie McNair wants to ask a supplementary question. If you finish your line of questioning, I will then bring her in.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 31 October 2024

Bob Doris

Thank you, cabinet secretary. We now move to questions from MSP colleagues, and I ask Katy Clark to kick off.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 31 October 2024

Bob Doris

The result of the division is: For 3, Against 0, Abstentions 4.

Motion agreed to,

That the Social Justice and Social Security Committee recommends that the Winter Heating Assistance (Pension Age) (Scotland) Regulations 2024 [draft] be approved.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 31 October 2024

Bob Doris

Of course it is.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 31 October 2024

Bob Doris

Yes, of course I will, Mr Balfour.