Seòmar agus comataidhean

I am telling you, if you will let me answer.

I can hear you now.

I cannot hear you, Mr Kerr.

You have raised a few issues there, Mr Kerr. We will actively consider the issue of borrowing. There are some constraints with regard to ONS classification, but if there is something that we can do in that respect, we will certainly consider it.

As for the issue of bureaucracy, that, as I am sure you will agree, can often be a loaded term. It is appropriate to ensure that public resources are accounted for, but I certainly do not want anything to be overly burdensome if such a basis is not required. If there is a specific proposition that will allow us to fulfil our fundamental requirement to account for the public purse, but on a basis that might not be felt to be as burdensome for Colleges Scotland, I am, of course, willing to consider it. However, as I have said, it would require a specific proposition.

With regard to your first question, I was not thinking specifically about apprenticeships. By my estimation and in my view, we have a well-established and pretty successful model for delivering apprentices that derives from Skills Development Scotland’s relationship with the providers that it contracts with. Of course, Colleges Scotland is involved in that, too.

I was thinking more about aspects such as how colleges can respond to the requirements of the existing workforce. An apprentice who is recruited will ordinarily be a new entrant to the workforce or, at the very least, someone for whom an apprenticeship might be their initial experience of work-based learning. In order to respond to the various social and economic imperatives and issues that lie ahead of us, such as demographic change and the climate emergency, we need to upskill existing members of the workforce so that they do not fall out of the labour market, with all the consequential challenges that that might entail.

How can we ensure that colleges are ever more responsive to those requirements? I am thinking of that kind of territory.

I recently undertook a very good visit to Glasgow Kelvin College. Mr Doris will doubtless have some questions for me, and I know that Ms Callaghan has an interest in community learning and development. Can we facilitate more of that type of activity? We are considering all of those things.

That is right in two senses. First, comparisons with England must be viewed with caution, because the measurements are taken in a very different way and the sectors are very different in that Scotland’s colleges deliver far more higher education than English colleges do. Therefore, I would always be cautious about drawing conclusions from such comparisons.

However, there is a legitimate question that we need to consider about how we view completion rates. Derek Smeall has articulated that point clearly. Indeed, when we visited his college, he discussed the issue with us, and I am more than willing to continue to reflect on it.

We absolutely want more students to complete their course, but, in many instances, students are not completing their course because they are moving on to another positive destination. We need to be cautious about drawing the conclusion that non-completion equals failure, because that is not the case. Can we better reflect that in how we monitor and measure things? Yes, I think that we probably can. We need to reflect on that.

Undoubtedly, improvements can be made. None of us would pretend that there is not still a journey to be made in ensuring that our institutions are ever more responsive to the requirements and needs of our economy and society. The fundamental question is whether regionalisation creates a better platform for that to be enabled. For all the reasons that I have laid out, I believe that to be the case.

Looking across the country and the many visits that I have undertaken to Scotland’s colleges, I see that in action. For example, I visited West Lothian College, which has a good tie-up with the Scottish Ambulance Service to support people to transition from various sectors of the economy into the social care sector. Borders College uses its science, technology, engineering and mathematics centre to better support the upskilling of employers such as electricians to undertake important types of activity for the future response on the green skills agenda—for example, through the installation of ground-source heat pumps.

That is the type of activity that we have enabled to happen through regionalisation, but there is undoubtedly still more to be done. I am up for that challenge and I know that Scotland’s colleges are, too.

Some flexibilities are already being extended. There is some latitude for colleges on meeting their credit targets without the Scottish Funding Council implementing clawback.

In the environment that we have, we can operate with some latitude and flexibility. The question that has been posed to us, which is reasonable, is whether we can go further. I am committed to considering that question. It might be possible that we can do something this academic year, but I believe that we might be able to do more in the next academic year.

Colleges Scotland has asked whether we need such a level of credit-based provision and whether colleges should have increased latitude to be more responsive to, say, local employer demand. I am committed to looking at that, but can I earnestly and honestly say that we have landed where we are going to end up on that? No, I cannot, but we also have a good foundation of learning with regard to what that could look like.

The flexible workforce development fund, for example, enables employers to have a more direct relationship with colleges and to draw down funding that will be quite responsive to their specific requirements, and our national transition training fund enabled colleges to respond very flexibly. In response to the convener’s opening questions, I mentioned West Lothian College’s work with the Scottish Ambulance Service, and funding for that was drawn down from the national transition training fund.

There is therefore a basis on which we can be informed about the decisions that we might take, but I point out that we are actively engaged on the matter and are discussing it further with Colleges Scotland to see whether we can land somewhere that might enable them to exercise some more latitude with regard to the public resource that we provide.

—and we have put in a significant uplift this year. That is the type of action that we have seen from the Government.

I am sorry, but it is silly to suggest that what I said is just about meetings and engagement that we might have, although I hope that Mr Marra recognises that it is not unreasonable for me to speak with the people who are delivering on the ground to understand how we might go about improving things. Occasionally, that requires the odd meeting or two.

However, the fundamental point that you make, Mr Marra, should be one of the things that we consider. In terms of the widening access journey, a lot of this probably relates more to the activity. We have a discussion ahead about universities, and colleges are a critical conduit into universities. It is critical that, as a first step, we get people through the door, but that is not the end of the matter. Where people end up in their experience of education, the process to qualification and beyond qualification are all vital aspects of the widening access agenda.

Despite the robust nature of our exchanges, which I am always relaxed to have with you, Mr Marra, we are probably as one on that issue.