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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 13 April 2025
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Displaying 238 contributions

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Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee

Scottish Elections (Representation and Reform) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 November 2024

Jamie Hepburn

I will take Mr Greer’s intervention, but I think that I am about to go on to address his point.

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee

Scottish Elections (Representation and Reform) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 November 2024

Jamie Hepburn

Yes, I suspect that that was a slip of the tongue.

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee

Scottish Elections (Representation and Reform) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 November 2024

Jamie Hepburn

We would all recognise and appreciate that point, as it would be an understandable human instinct. However, I wonder whether Ms Wells has reflected on the fact that we have had to very carefully consider the balance between the concerns that people reasonably have—indeed, they are why we have brought forward the provisions—and ensuring that we are on the right side of the requirements that have been laid out by the Vienna commission. I am genuinely concerned about that.

To put it in context, we had to give very close and careful consideration to the provisions, as we would with anything that we propose in law. At one stage, we considered whether we could even go as far with regard to parliamentarians, because of the requirements of the Vienna commission. I think that we have landed with the appropriate balance. Of course, the Government would have to robustly defend any bill, subsequent to it being passed and becoming an act of Parliament, so I want to ensure that we have legislation that is as robust as it can be.

Although I take Ms Wells’s concerns on board, which is the reason that those provisions have been lodged, I wonder whether she has reflected on whether the position that she has asked the committee to take strikes the right balance, and whether it might be a step too far.

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee

Scottish Elections (Representation and Reform) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 November 2024

Jamie Hepburn

The point that I was trying to make is that it is a strength of our process of deliberation that there is a stage 1 process in which the issues are considered in detail by the committee. It is clearly for the committee to consider what it wants to determine at that stage, but if the issue had been aired at that stage and if recommendations on it had been made, as I have demonstrated across the range of amendments that I am moving today, we would have listened to what the committee said and weighed the balance of the evidence that it had gathered, and we would have responded with appropriate amendments.

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee

Scottish Elections (Representation and Reform) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 November 2024

Jamie Hepburn

Indeed.

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee

Scottish Elections (Representation and Reform) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 November 2024

Jamie Hepburn

I will start with Mr Greer’s amendment 69, which, as he has laid out, ensures that any electoral innovation pilot that would change the methods used to cast votes must be approved by affirmative resolution of the Parliament.

From the discussion that I had with Mr Greer before today—and which, again, I was grateful for—and from what he has set out today, it is clear that his concerns relate specifically to electronic voting. I am concerned that his proposed wording might have an impact on some possible pilots in which changes to the method of voting might not reach his own threshold of concern with regard to this specific area.

Some pilots might, for example, be focused on accessibility improvements. I know that those who are not on the committee did not receive them, but I sent the committee samples of the new tactile voting devices that are being piloted. I could be wrong—the committee might take an alternative view—but I do not think that that example crosses the threshold to require an affirmative vote of Parliament.

I suggest that I discuss the matter further with him. I should say that, in doing so, I am not necessarily going to agree with him at stage 3. If his concern is as narrowly focused as it is, it might be better if he did not press amendment 69 today and instead brought back at stage 3 a more specific amendment on a specific area of concern relating to electronic voting. Indeed, I urge him to consider doing that today.

Amendments 35 to 43, which respond to the committee’s recommendation that the Electoral Commission should be added to the list of bodies that must be consulted on proposed election pilots, will mean that persons who propose an electoral pilot must consult the Electoral Commission before making such a proposal. They will also mean that the Scottish ministers will be obliged to consult the Electoral Commission as well as the Electoral Management Board before making any modifications to a pilot scheme that has been proposed by a local authority or a registration officer under section 5 of the Scottish Local Government (Elections) Act 2002.

Mr Doris’s amendments 4 to 7, which will allow the Government to make regulations on pilots for the registration of electors, set out how such pilots may be proposed and evaluated, and made permanent if desirable. They relate to a recommendation that was made by the committee at stage 1. I am grateful to Mr Doris for lodging them, and I was pleased to work with him in advance of stage 2 to help to develop them.

Amendments 4 and 5 will allow the Scottish ministers to make regulations for temporary pilots on voter registration. Any pilots that are proposed to ministers must be the subject of consultation with the Electoral Management Board and the Electoral Commission before they can be approved, to ensure that the expertise of the electoral community, for want of a better term, has been taken into account. Those bodies will be involved in implementing the roll-out of any successful pilots.

Amendments 6 and 7 will ensure that the pilots will be fully evaluated by the Electoral Commission. Ministers will be able to seek to make a change permanent through an affirmative instrument, but only if the Electoral Commission has independently made such a recommendation in its evaluation report.

Information sharing is likely to be a key aspect of any pilot on voter registration, such as a pilot on automatic voter registration, and Mr Doris’s amendments include provisions to facilitate that. Specifically, amendment 4 includes provision about the processing of information in relation to registration.

The Government supports amendments 6 and 7. We are committed to ensuring that everyone who is eligible to vote is able to register. Complete and accurate electoral registers are an important part of that. We know that certain groups, such as young people, people in private rented accommodation and foreign nationals, are far less likely to be registered. Piloting innovative forms of voter registration, such as those that make better use of public data, is one way in which we can seek to improve the electoral registers.

Mr Doris’s amendments set out a robust procedure to ensure that such innovations will be proposed in consultation with those who have responsibility for administering elections, piloted on a temporary basis and fully evaluated before being put to Parliament for a decision on whether to make the reforms apply generally and on a permanent basis.

I urge members to support all the amendments in the group, save for amendment 69, which I ask Mr Greer not to press.

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee

Scottish Elections (Representation and Reform) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 November 2024

Jamie Hepburn

The amendments in this group are either technical adjustments or seek to make changes that tidy up drafting and correct minor typos in the bill as introduced. They make no policy changes.

Amendment 23 adjusts section 23 of the bill for technical reasons. That section currently seeks to amend section 46 of the Scotland Act 1998 by adding two new subsections to take account of any delay in Parliament meeting after a rescheduled election. However, because the Scottish Parliament can modify only certain listed provisions in the 1998 act, that structure would mean that there could, arguably, be doubt about whether our Parliament would be able to amend the section further in the future. The amendment restructures the proposed amendments to leave no doubt that the text can be changed in the future by this Parliament, if that is desired.

Amendments 26, 27 and 30 add the secretary of state to the list of consultees when the convener of the Electoral Management Board or a returning officer is considering rescheduling a local government election. That is to ensure that any rescheduled local election does not fall on the same day as a UK parliamentary election. Although such a situation is considered to be unlikely to arise, were it to happen it would result in a combined election, which would add considerable complexity for administrators and risk voter confusion.

I turn to amendment 44. Existing secondary legislation powers for Scottish Parliament elections allow ministers to make provision for sub-delegating certain responsibilities to other persons. The specific sub-delegation that we have been considering is to place a requirement on the Electoral Commission to provide guidance on ways in which returning officers can assist voters with accessibility needs. The Government plans to legislate on such guidance in 2025 for Scottish Parliament elections, and before 2027 for local elections.

We have established that, as the legislation stands, Scottish ministers have the necessary legislative powers to require the Electoral Commission to provide guidance for Scottish Parliament elections, but do not have the power to do so for council elections. Amendment 44 therefore seeks to change those powers in relation to local government elections so that they match the existing powers on sub-delegation in relation to parliamentary elections. It will allow secondary legislation and council elections to refer to documents such as guidance or forms that are prepared by the Electoral Commission and others, and will provide that those documents form part of the rules in relation to local elections.

Amendment 45 simply corrects a typo. Similarly, amendment 48 corrects an inconsistency in language where the word “code” appears when it should say “plan”.

I invite the committee to support the straightforward amendments in this group in my name.

I move amendment 23.

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee

Scottish Elections (Representation and Reform) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 November 2024

Jamie Hepburn

I am happy to deal with it at the end, if you would like.

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee

Scottish Elections (Representation and Reform) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 November 2024

Jamie Hepburn

I have underlined at the top of my notes that it is Venice and not Vienna, convener—that is a mistake that I make frequently.

I will start with Ms Webber’s point, lest I forget. She is right, in that amendment 20 creates transitional provision. She cited the convention, and that is the very purpose of the provision. We need to strike a balance, by creating a set of provisions that I believe will fundamentally improve public safety and trust in our democratic system, but in a way that is proportionate and meets the requirements of the Venice commission—I nearly said “Vienna” again—around the disqualification of parliamentarians. The fundamental point is that there should be a high threshold for disbarring someone who is already in elected office. We need to approach that carefully.

I am happy to give way if Ms Webber seeks more information.

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee

Scottish Elections (Representation and Reform) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 November 2024

Jamie Hepburn

I will press amendment 8, convener.