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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 21 April 2025
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Displaying 858 contributions

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Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 18 January 2023

Shirley-Anne Somerville

Sorry?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 18 January 2023

Shirley-Anne Somerville

I will respond to that, because I think that it is important that I do. I will do so by telling you about some feedback that I got when I was at a teaching conference recently. During a question-and-answer session, a teacher said to me, “Why does everybody keep saying there is so much wrong with Scottish education when what I see is an education system that is good, with a lot of good things happening in it?” With the greatest respect, I do not think that talk of an education system that is in crisis helps us to have the type of discussion that I would hope we could have—and which the national discussion was all about—on looking at where we can improve. We should also take a little bit of time to celebrate the success, which is thanks to the hard work of our teachers and support staff who are delivering for our children and young people.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 18 January 2023

Shirley-Anne Somerville

It is, and I am going to explain some of the suggestions for progress that the Government took to the SNCT.

We had discussed with union and local government colleagues whether we could introduce the reduction in class contact time in some areas before we did so in others. Was it easier and quicker to do that in primary school settings than in secondary schools? Could we deliver it in parts of the education system and leave until later those that are more challenging because of the numbers that we have still to recruit? A perfectly acceptable point was reached with local government and unions whereby they did not want to follow that process—they wanted to see the reduction happen throughout all education at the same time. I totally accept that they were not keen on the more flexible way in which we had hoped to introduce it.

You are absolutely right in saying that the number of teachers and the reduction in class contact time are inextricably linked. One cannot be done without the other. We will therefore continue to work with the SNCT to progress the numbers that we wish to see in this Parliamentary session, to allow us to deliver the class contact times.

In part, it depends on how others in the negotiating system want that to be delivered. They had a different view on that to the Government’s view. We will work with them to see how quickly we can get things through.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 18 January 2023

Shirley-Anne Somerville

That is an important area of our work. It is important to recognise that it is about not just the Gaelic budget in my portfolio but how we use cross-governmental budgets and how we use what happens within Government to deliver on Gaelic language plans. There is a £1 million increase in the Gaelic budget in my portfolio in comparison with last year, but that is a capital increase to support the expansion of Gaelic.

As I said, the matter of how we improve the learning and, importantly, the use of Gaelic sits not only within that portfolio spend. For example, the work that I chair in the faster rate of progress group with public agencies such as Skills Development Scotland, councils and other public bodies is about how we can improve right across Government. Although the Gaelic budget sits within my portfolio, there is a responsibility across Government to deliver on the Gaelic language plan.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 18 January 2023

Shirley-Anne Somerville

That is an important part of our work to expand the provision of free school meals. In Scotland, universal free school meals are currently available during term time for 280,000 children in P1 to P5 and in special schools, in addition to those who are eligible in P6 to secondary. We estimate that just over 300,000 pupils will be eligible once we have the expansion to P6 and P7 aligned to the Scottish child payment. That is a good increase that will benefit around 20,000 pupils across Scotland.

We are working carefully with COSLA to ensure that the money is spent, looking in particular at how we can spend the £80 million of capital in the budget this year to ensure that changes are made to the school estate that will allow us to deliver on the expansion in alignment with the SCP, while bearing in mind that we want to move rapidly on to universal provision.

The situation will vary from council to council. Some councils have greater challenges in the school estate than others, so we need to work with councils on where we are in that respect and how the money can best be spent. Work with councils is continuing around how best to spend the £80 million, in particular, and I hope that we will see significant progress. We anticipate being able to move forward with the provision of free school meals for those in P6 and P7 in alignment with the SCP very quickly. However, that can be done only once the changes are made within the school estate.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 18 January 2023

Shirley-Anne Somerville

I am happy to provide further information on the £30 million, because what I have with me today is information relating to the budget scrutiny for next year.

When we are looking at how we can best spend that money, we will bear in mind the fact that some schools will need quite a small amount to get to the point of being able to deliver free school meals and the fact that there may be other, larger projects that some schools need in particular settings. The Government also has a responsibility to ensure that the money that has been allocated is being used as effectively as possible, because the budget is finite.

10:30  

There will be a degree of challenging local authorities in order to ensure that the money that is being spent is delivering what we want it to deliver at a reasonable cost. For example, we would consider whether there were other ways in which schools could use their current estates or make other changes, so that the initial capital cost that might be suggested by a local authority was not the only available route. As the committee would expect, as part of our process around the £80 million as well as the money that has already been spent, there will be that challenge. The Scottish Futures Trust plays an important role in assisting the Government to look at how we can best use the money to get the maximum effect from it. Clearly, further work may still need to be done to get us to the point of universal provision of free school meals in primary schools, which we will have to deal with in future budget years, and that degree of challenge is an important part of the process as we work collaboratively with local authorities to ensure that we are getting the most out of that money.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 18 January 2023

Shirley-Anne Somerville

Large capital projects are best and most easily done during the summer holiday period. We would hope that we could get into a position whereby that could be in place for the start of the academic year, though that might not be possible for all school projects. Obviously, there is a caveat as we work through the details of the expansion, but that is certainly our hope, and I think that everyone is keen to move forward as quickly as possible.

If a number of local authorities could proceed but a small number of local authorities or a small number of schools in different local authorities had not reached the point of being able to offer the provision, we would not want the whole project to be held back by a potentially small number of schools not having reached capacity. We might look to see whether there were other avenues that we could go down to bring in the scheme.

That is a long way of saying that we hope that it can be applied from the start of the academic year.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 18 January 2023

Shirley-Anne Somerville

That is exceptionally important. With the best will in the world, there is no point in having the scheme if families do not know about it or are not encouraged to take it up, whether that is done through the work that local authorities already do to encourage eligible families or through work that we can do through Social Security Scotland. We also have the Parent Club, which Ms Haughey has referred to and which is an important avenue of communication for the Scottish Government.

We will look at every avenue that we possibly can in order to ensure that people are aware of the scheme and that we make it as simple as possible for people to take part in it, while encouraging them to do that. Many local authorities are being proactive about ensuring that families receive all their entitlements, and there is important work that we can do with them around that. We are keen to assist them in any way, through any of the agencies, including Social Security Scotland.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 18 January 2023

Shirley-Anne Somerville

Let me first deal with the geographical issue with subjects. I totally appreciate that we have parts of the country where people cannot get employment, particularly in primary settings in some local authorities, while other local authorities continue to have to advertise, particularly for secondary subjects.

What we look at in initial teacher education is where the places are. We could try to have more initial teacher education in different universities or to deliver it in innovative ways so that it is not so focused in the central belt, which is sometimes where we see challenges.

We are considering what we can do to encourage people into science, technology, engineering and mathematics, or STEM, subjects—although not only those—and we have a bursary to encourage people to move into that subject area. We are doing work, under the Logan review, to see what we can do around computing. We have such schemes to ensure that we deal with subject areas. That is a continuing challenge not just in Scotland but elsewhere. We are very keen to learn from elsewhere what more we might need to do to assist with that.

I am keen to work with local authorities on whether there is more that they can do in terms of incentives. It might be that we have an overprovision of some skills in parts of the central belt, but, for very understandable reasons, such as a family being established, people do not have a desire to move to other parts of the country. Is there further incentive work that local authorities could do to assist with that? We have some such arrangements already built in for some of our island communities, for example, but a discussion is to be had about whether more can be done. Discussion on that will continue with the professional associations.

I hope that that deals with some of the issues that you have raised, Mr Marra.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 18 January 2023

Shirley-Anne Somerville

I point to the response from Colleges Scotland when the budget was announced. Andy Witty said:

“Today Scottish Government has recognised the vital role of colleges in assisting in the economic recovery, alleviating poverty and mitigating climate change.”

He went on to talk about the genuinely constructive discussions that Colleges Scotland, Mr Hepburn, officials and I had on the issue.

It is clear that there is an increase of £26 million in the resource budget for 2023-24, which demonstrates, under very difficult financial circumstances, a real commitment from the Government to support our colleges and universities.

Yes, there are challenging times ahead for the Scottish Government, public agencies and colleges—these are difficult financial times. However, despite that, we have been able to increase the net college sector resource budget, because we recognise the situation. Individual colleges will be looking at important aspects of their budget, and they might need to make changes to their curriculum to deliver what they wish and need to deliver for the local economy. Colleges will take those decisions.

We have an increase in the overall budget. The Scottish Funding Council will move forward with draft applications for colleges in March and final allocations thereafter, so that they can deliver with the increased budget that they are receiving from the Government.