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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 20 April 2025
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Displaying 858 contributions

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Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Social Security (Amendment) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 18 April 2024

Shirley-Anne Somerville

We have taken that issue really seriously, as I have looked at the evidence. I will continue to repeat the point that we have to do everything on the basis of dignity, fairness and respect. That includes how we do our audit.

Audit is exceptionally important because of our requirement to ensure—quite rightly—that we are using public funds correctly. For example, I point to Audit Scotland’s evidence, which rightly establishes that the agency has in place the correct audit functions.

We have looked very carefully at the options around audit. We have not gone for a complete replica of what the DWP does, for example, although we did look at that, because there are lessons to learn from systems that are currently in place.

I suppose that I would say, in answer to one of the overarching concerns that people have about the requirement, that we are talking about audit, not about tackling fraud. In an audit, one might see information about a case that could lead to a concern that there might be fraud. I suggest that, if the audit system was entirely voluntary, someone who was committing fraud would not volunteer to be audited under that system. On that basis, there would be a self-selected sample of people, which would not give the agency the ability to carry out a full audit process.

We looked at different ways in which that could be done. We undertook a desk-based review of a random sample of cases with voluntary interviews. I hope that I have shown Mr Mason the slight difficulty with that. We also did a desk-based review of a random sample of cases and followed that up with mandatory interviews.

I want to reassure members about what happens in the audit process, which is where the important safeguarding measures come into play. We do not just take away a person’s benefit if they do not engage; we ensure that we work with the client so that they understand the importance of the audit process, which is done in a supportive fashion.

I hope that that gives you a high-level explanation of why we have come to the decisions that we have made and why I went through the process that I had to go through with the detailed suggestions that we have made. If there are particular points that you want to pick up on, I am happy to do so, or I will bring in my colleagues.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Social Security (Amendment) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 18 April 2024

Shirley-Anne Somerville

We can certainly check that, Mr Doris, in case the assumption that I am working on is incorrect.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Social Security (Amendment) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 18 April 2024

Shirley-Anne Somerville

Convener, with your indulgence, I will just say that the regulations that we were talking about will be subject to affirmative procedure.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Social Security (Amendment) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 18 April 2024

Shirley-Anne Somerville

First, it is an important principle that we should have that in our system. As I suggested in my opening remarks, recovery of compensation is a very specialised function, so, as we have drawn the financial memorandum together, we have looked at what happens in Northern Ireland and other systems and have attempted to compare that, as best we can, with what a Scottish system would look like. That has led to a wide range of estimated implementation and running costs. It is important that, as we are required to do, we consider the overestimations that are built into delivery and that we produce the financial memorandum on that basis.

The detailed analysis of the requirements that will be necessary to carry out the function that includes working with the DWP will allow us to have a much more accurate account of the costs once that work has been undertaken with the DWP. We would be happy to provide the committee with further information on that should the bill become an act and we move forward with the compensation scheme. However, I point out that it is also important to bear in mind that the delivery of that function is an important function of a social security system.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Social Security (Amendment) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 18 April 2024

Shirley-Anne Somerville

That is such an important point. I go back to the issue of continuous improvement, which I have mentioned a few times now. We are now working through the processes, although they are still very small in number, given the number of cases involving redeterminations and appeals. I appreciate that the committee is examining those issues in other evidence sessions; I believe that you have the agency and the tribunals service coming before you next week. We, too, will look to continuously improve what the system looks like—whether that has to be done through a bill or whether it is about practices, and I am sure that, if it wishes to do so, the committee will investigate that with the agency in relation to operational matters.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Social Security (Amendment) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 18 April 2024

Shirley-Anne Somerville

This is an important point. The Scottish child payment is not available to young people over 16, but our education maintenance allowance is still available. It is not that payment and support are not available; it is just a different type of support. Nonetheless, support is available for young people between the ages of 16 and 18.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Social Security (Amendment) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 18 April 2024

Shirley-Anne Somerville

At present, we have no plans to extend eligibility for the Scottish child payment to older children. Its purpose is to alleviate child poverty—that is an absolutely important principle of the Government—but, as I have said, there are other benefits, including the education maintenance allowance, that are available for young people who are over 16.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Social Security (Amendment) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 18 April 2024

Shirley-Anne Somerville

We absolutely agree that social security should be as accessible and accommodating as possible. When facing exceptionally challenging personal circumstances, such as upheaval in the home, vulnerability, ill health and so on, clients might struggle to apply for assistance in a timely manner. That is an important point that the Government and the agency need to be cognisant of in implementation.

We are considering extending the flexibility that is available through the provision. We think that that is worth while, even if it helps only a handful of cases. After all, that handful of cases will involve people who are, potentially, exceptionally vulnerable and are in the most difficult of circumstances. I am therefore very content to take forward investigations at stage 2 on how we can move forward with that. As I said in my introductory remarks, it is important that we look at exceptional circumstances and see what can be done.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Social Security (Amendment) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 18 April 2024

Shirley-Anne Somerville

An easy-to-navigate form is automatically included with a redetermination notice. It can, of course, be completed online and so on. This is one of the aspects where we tried to make the process as easy as possible for a client and ensure that it is not opaque. We not only say that people can have a redetermination but set out how that can be done. It is an attempt to deal with the issue in a very open manner.

The form is also designed to collate all the information that the tribunal will require. Of course, clients can contact Social Security Scotland to talk about the completion of any forms, and people can be assisted in completing them.

I do not know whether you want to add anything to that, Iain.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Social Security (Amendment) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 18 April 2024

Shirley-Anne Somerville

I am happy to provide more detail in writing, but, for example, the bill requires the agency to speak to both the client and the appointee, when that is possible—we appreciate that it might not be possible to speak to both in the case of some disabilities or conditions. We have local delivery teams that can go out on visits to make those checks, which is different from what happens in England.

We can provide a full comparison by correspondence, if that would assist members.