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Yes, that is helpful, particularly your mention of artificial intelligence, but that would be a whole different discussion.

Ben, do you have anything else to say on that?

Local authorities have a history of doing that, with people who have gone down one career path jumping to do something else, because they have the skill set from elsewhere. That was more a statement than a question. Thank you.

Good morning. My question has changed in my head about three or four times as the conversation has gone on, but I will try to say something lucid and come to some conclusion with everything that I am trying to ask.

You did the comprehensive audit of museums’ collections. The biggest capital spend in the cultural sector at the moment is the Paisley museum, so I will use Paisley as an example. I am wearing a tie in the Paisley pattern, for which the town is famous. It is black and white, which is for St Mirren as well—I am going totally Paisley today. A lot of people in Paisley probably do not know the history of the pattern, the fact that it is steeped in empire and colonialism and the fact that it was not a wee wifie or a man in Paisley who decided in their weaving cottage to make a Paisley pattern but that it was taken from India. It was originally created in India in the 11th century and became popular here in the 17th and 18th centuries.

I know that the Paisley museum is going to do an exhibition on the pattern. I hope that it looks into that history as well, because things like that will open people’s eyes and make them realise that they need to know more about something that is part of their culture. Do we agree that those are the key things that will get people in and get them talking?

It just shows you how things have changed over my lifetime. We need to embrace those issues.

I had forgotten about the Robertson’s jam symbol. I have probably excised it from my head because it was just there all the time.

Modern museums—I believe that that is what Paisley is trying to create—have such conversations with young people and children to make sure that they understand.

If you look across the road from the museum to the University of the West of Scotland, there is a statue of the Rev Witherspoon. Paisley is very proud of the fact that he signed the declaration of independence for the United States, but he was also a slave owner. In my opinion, it is not so much that we need to take the statue down; it is more about the context. That is what you have been saying, Zandra. The context is that he signed the declaration and said those weighty words but, at the same time, he was a slave owner—along with just about everyone else who signed the document.

I am trying to be really positive about the bill and to see the life-changing benefits that everyone claims that the bill would provide and that outdoor education centres provide.

One of the biggest issues relates to a matter that you have mentioned and on which we have received evidence: the capital costs involved with the buildings themselves. Jamie Miller of Scottish Outdoor Education Centres reported that many of its buildings date back to 1939, are not designed for long-term use and are not energy efficient. Phil Thompson mentioned that the Ardroy Outdoor Education Centre’s buildings date from 1969 and need major capital investment, with some of the dormitories becoming run down. He said that, without significant investment, some facilities may become unsuitable or unaffordable for schools. Is that a concern, should the bill go through? We would have all these young people and children rocking up to outdoor education centres, but they are falling to bits.

The buildings have not been touched since 1939 or 1969, so that could be interesting.

Some dormitories are becoming run down.

We know from evidence to the committee that local authorities carry out a lot of good work in this area, which they do in different ways and not necessarily along the lines of what is proposed in the bill. You have already said that the approach that is taken is very limiting, given that the bill is only about outdoor education centres. I would go further. In the committee’s first evidence session on the bill, Professor Mannion noted that many residential centres focus too narrowly on traditional outdoor education activities such as kayaking, zip-lining and other outdoor pursuits, rather than on offering a broader curriculum with

“maths, music, drama and history”.

He also suggested that we should look at

“conservation activity, pro-environmental behaviour or learning about sustainability”—[Official Report, Education, Children and Young People Committee, 6 November 2024; c 19.]

and he believes that we should not necessarily be doing outdoor education for a whole week but probably daily.

You have said that the bill is quite limiting. A great deal of work is being done elsewhere and by different local authorities, so is it not the case that the bill might hinder what is being done locally and that we might end up focusing on the one issue? As Professor Mannion said, the bill is too narrowly focused.