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I said that I was not going to go on about culture change, but I am going to come to it now, Professor Donaldson. I agree with you, but how do we get to that stage? All the organisations that I mentioned, including the education committees in 32 local authorities, will sit there saying, “This is a fantastic report that we have just received on that school.” If people take that and look at the new ways of working, they might get a bit cynical about it and ask how we can convince the partner organisations that that is the way forward.

Clearly, the next round is on you, if you have that swear box. [Laughter.]

Finally, you have admitted that it is quite a crowded landscape. I am buying into what you say, but how do we navigate that crowded landscape to get ourselves to the stage where we are making the cultural change that you keep talking about, Professor Muir?

Thank you and good morning. This follows on from the questions that I asked earlier. I am not going to go on about the cultural part, because we kicked that ball around quite a bit earlier on.

One of the things about inspection is that we know that local authorities appreciate inspections. We know that the education authorities and parents respect the whole process. When we get to the stage of making a decision on how we will go forward, should it be the new chief inspector who makes decisions on the principles of inspection, or should that be in the bill? Probably Professor Donaldson is a good starter for that one.

We talk about a refocused Education Scotland, which to me seems strange: either it is working or it is not working—maybe that is because I am a St Mirren fan and like black and white, but never mind. You have spoken today about cultural change with an open and listening leadership. That sums up everything that you have said today. What does Education Scotland need to do? You are saying that much does not come from the ground up but seems to get stuck in the middle before it gets anywhere near a Government minister hearing about any ideas coming up from the trenches. How do you see that organisation going forward? What changes are needed for some of your ideas, which I have much sympathy with, to work?

It is not so much that they need to know more than a single word. It is more about knowing that parents are engaging with the process when their child is going through education. Parents have got busy lives; it is just a case of finding a way to get the message across.

I take on board what you are saying but do you believe, as Professor Muir says—I suppose that you do as you have spoken about citizens assembly ideas—that we have to engage with all the stakeholders involved to get that idea of cultural change over? Otherwise, I know that in education you can go down one route and then there will be somebody over there in the corner saying, “You forgot about me”.

When I was a councillor, I always knew when there was an inspection, because the jannie would be wanting the bins moved or sorted out so that everything was perfect. That kind of panic tends to happen at school level, too.

You said that the system might be a bit too closed, with too many reports being generated. The problem is that, if a very good report is being discussed at a local authority education committee meeting, a whole bunch of councillors—with multimember wards, it might be four or five councillors—will say, “This is a very good report, and I’m very glad about it.” They, as well as mums and dads, measure the success of a school based on that. You spoke earlier about the idea of league tables. I have a lot of sympathy with what you said, but how can we move away from that kind of culture? That is part of the culture change that you are talking about.

You said earlier that you saw the bill as a foundation for moving on to further reform, and you said that not all of that would have to be legislative. Are we in that kind of aspect? When we talk about cultural change, as John Mason said, that is not all legislative. In the past, the Government has been accused of legislating for far too much, so maybe it is just a case of trying to find a way to get that cultural change, which is a big challenge.

I was going to ask another question about how you do this from the ground up, but you answered that just now, so thank you.

Good morning. I agree about the importance of culture in society, full stop. Many of the Scottish Government’s ambitions tick the box. I also respect the iconic institutions that you represent. Like Susan Deighan, I like to say that I am a solutions-based person. I will follow up a question that Patrick Harvie asked, so it is the two guys who were just recently in Government who are asking this question. What is the mechanism for engagement with the Scottish Government and the cabinet secretary, in order for you to say the things that you have said to us today? What has that on-going engagement been like?