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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 3 December 2025
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Displaying 1002 contributions

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Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 11 November 2025

Michael Matheson

My issue is that we have received evidence suggesting that there should be an amendment to the bill so that it could be applied only to senior management.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 11 November 2025

Michael Matheson

That could be potentially one of the unintended consequences of having two areas of law that overlap one another on this matter.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 11 November 2025

Michael Matheson

Okay. I will bring in Murdo MacLeod.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 11 November 2025

Michael Matheson

Ricardo, can I clarify something? Are you suggesting that the regulatory authorities in England and Wales are issuing civil penalties for crimes that, based on the definition of ecocide in the bill, the bill would make a criminal offence in Scotland if it was enacted?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 11 November 2025

Michael Matheson

That is helpful, because there has been some suggestion of the bill being amended so that only senior managers in an organisation could be prosecuted. I am trying to understand the situation where an employee carries out an act that causes significant environmental harm but was outwith the company’s procedures and that they should not have done. How would you then prosecute a senior manager or director of an organisation who knew nothing about that and was not involved in it? If a person acted outwith the company’s procedures, you might then pursue a prosecution against a senior manager that could result in that person being imprisoned for up to 20 years. I do not understand how you would take that forward as a prosecutor or how our courts would look at it.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 11 November 2025

Michael Matheson

My point is not about the provisions that are in the bill; it is about the suggestion that those provisions should be removed in a way that would mean that the only individuals who could be prosecuted are senior managers.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 11 November 2025

Michael Matheson

What if that defence was removed?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 11 November 2025

Michael Matheson

That is helpful. Thank you. Some EU countries have an administrative liability scheme as opposed to a criminal liability scheme when it comes to environmental crime, which is different from what we have in Scots law.

Deterrence is a key theme that has come through in the answers that we have had so far as to why we might wish to introduce a bill of this nature, with an ecocide offence. You will have heard the evidence that we received from the first panel. The head of environmental crime at the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service of Scotland said that it has been unable to identify any such offences having been brought to it since 2014 and that it is struggling to anticipate something in the future that the existing law would not be capable of dealing with.

If we lack any identifiable evidence of cases over the past, let us say, 10-plus years, and if our prosecutors are saying that they cannot think of any offences that could occur in Scotland that the existing law could not deal with but that the bill seeks to deal with, where exactly is the deterrence in introducing a bill of this nature?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 11 November 2025

Michael Matheson

Could I ask Rachel Killean about deterrence? Our prosecutors in the Crown Office say that they cannot identify any cases, and they cannot envisage any cases in the future, that they could not prosecute using existing legislation. Therefore, what is the deterrent effect of having a bill to criminalise ecocide?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 4 November 2025

Michael Matheson

I want to pick up on that theme and come back, in particular, to Ross Haggart’s comments about the provisions in section 40 of the 2014 act, the permit exemption aspect and the cause and effect of that type of change not being made to the bill. If that aspect is not introduced as part of the bill, might the precautionary principle be, in effect, ramped up to the extent that SEPA gets so risk averse that any developments seeking permits will actually find it quite difficult to get them? Might you, as a regulator, become increasingly anxious about the liability that you might face at some future point and about being pursued for committing ecocide or for contributing to it? Is that a risk?

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