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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 7 November 2025
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Displaying 973 contributions

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Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 4 November 2025

Michael Matheson

I want to pick up on that theme and come back, in particular, to Ross Haggart’s comments about the provisions in section 40 of the 2014 act, the permit exemption aspect and the cause and effect of that type of change not being made to the bill. If that aspect is not introduced as part of the bill, might the precautionary principle be, in effect, ramped up to the extent that SEPA gets so risk averse that any developments seeking permits will actually find it quite difficult to get them? Might you, as a regulator, become increasingly anxious about the liability that you might face at some future point and about being pursued for committing ecocide or for contributing to it? Is that a risk?

10:15  

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 4 November 2025

Michael Matheson

If it is not?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Sustainable Aviation Fuel Bill

Meeting date: 4 November 2025

Michael Matheson

That is very helpful—thanks very much. I must confess that I am a bit conflicted about the idea of investing in HEFA, given that the UK Government’s SAF mandate means that, by 2030, HEFA should decrease to 71 per cent of our SAF production and that, by 2040, it should decrease to 35 per cent. That says to me that the future will be power to liquid, so why should we bother spending hundreds of millions of pounds on investing in a SAF refinery facility? You have mentioned the timeframes. To be perfectly frank, I wonder whether Scottish Enterprise is wasting everybody’s time in looking at some of this, because I cannot see how it will make any business sense whatsoever, given the UK Government’s SAF mandate. Maybe Scottish Enterprise should reflect on that, because it might just be wasting everybody’s time.

I will turn to another issue, which is the funding that the UK Government has made available so far through its advanced fuels fund to support SAF project development. From looking in the paperwork that the committee has received, and joining the dots, I think that 19 projects have been awarded funding. Only one of those is in Scotland, in Orkney. Why has only one project in Scotland been allocated AFF?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 4 November 2025

Michael Matheson

Good morning. I want to pick up on the theme that the convener identified around the existing provisions in section 40 of the 2014 act. A couple of you—Mark Roberts in particular—mentioned the potential deterrent effect of the legislation, and other panellists agreed. What evidence is there that, given the sanctions that are attached to them, the provisions in section 40 are working as a deterrent just now and that, if we ramp up those provisions in the bill, there will be an even bigger impact?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 4 November 2025

Michael Matheson

I am just trying to establish whether the points that panellists have made can be substantiated.

I want to stick with the theme of the existing regulatory environment and Professor Gemmell’s suggestions about whether it is operating or being utilised effectively. Clive Mitchell, in the evidence from NatureScot, you stated that the Environmental Liability (Scotland) Regulations 2009 provide an existing route to require remediation for environmental damage. You said:

“The threshold for when the Regulations apply is very high and so the Regulations have been rarely used”.

Can you expand on that? Is there a need for us to look at the fundamentals of the existing regulatory framework before we add anything new to it, in order to identify how it could be improved?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 4 November 2025

Michael Matheson

Is it fair to say that there is no evidence that a higher offence provided for in a bill would be a deterrent? It might be, but there is no evidence to demonstrate that.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 4 November 2025

Michael Matheson

It is just your gut instinct.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 4 November 2025

Michael Matheson

Do any of the other witnesses want to come in?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 4 November 2025

Michael Matheson

I turn to you, Mark Roberts, as the regulator of the regulators, if you like. Is there a risk that, if such a provision is not included in the bill, it could inhibit developments from taking place, because a licence would be needed, which could lead to further environmental damage in some perverse way?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 4 November 2025

Michael Matheson

Sarah Hendry, given your legal expertise, do you think that there is a strong evidence base to demonstrate that regulations of this nature, or a bill containing an offence of this nature, would have a significant deterrent effect?