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Seòmar agus comataidhean

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 17 November 2025
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Displaying 991 contributions

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Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 11 November 2025

Michael Matheson

It is for Iain Batho. If an employee in a company acted negligently and outwith the company’s procedures and that resulted in an act that caused serious or significant environmental harm, who would be prosecuted in that instance? Would it be the company or the individual who had acted outwith the company’s procedures in a way that resulted in the harm being caused?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 11 November 2025

Michael Matheson

Can I pick up on the point about the overlap in law that would exist if the bill was passed? I am interested from a prosecutorial point of view. Obviously, it is not uncommon for there to be areas of criminal law that cross over one another. Does that present any challenges for you as a prosecutor in deciding which route to follow to take forward a prosecution?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 11 November 2025

Michael Matheson

If the bill was framed in such a way and an act was carried out by a member of staff operating outwith the company’s procedures and where senior management knew nothing about what they were doing, I am struggling to understand how you would then prosecute.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 11 November 2025

Michael Matheson

Is the bill is clear enough on harm that is caused by a course of conduct that impacts over a period time? The bill also covers one-off incidents, but does it give sufficient clarity on incidents that occur over time that could be considered ecocide? Does the bill give sufficient definition on that or is there need for further clarity in that area? I will give Iain Batho a rest and put that question to Rachael Weir.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 11 November 2025

Michael Matheson

Good morning—just—or good evening, in Rachel Killean’s case. I want to pick up on the issue about the experience in France, and potentially in other parts of the EU, where an ecocide law has been introduced. France moved from an administrative liability process for dealing with environmental crime to a criminal liability scheme. That was one of the main changes resulting from the introduction of the ecocide law—is that correct?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 11 November 2025

Michael Matheson

Yes. I am talking about a situation where the company or corporate organisation had done everything that it should have done and all the procedures were there, but an employee acted in a way that was outwith the company’s procedures and that resulted in significant environmental harm. Some have suggested that the bill should be amended so that, irrespective of that, the directors of the company should be prosecuted. That is not in the bill, but it has been suggested that the bill should be amended to do that.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 11 November 2025

Michael Matheson

Good morning. We have had a bit of a rear-view look at potential instances that could be covered by the bill. No one has identified any instances that have occurred since 2014—I think that Mr MacLeod went as far as saying that.

I am interested in the witnesses’ views on looking forward. Given your experience, are there gaps in the existing legal framework in this area that could interfere with your ability to prosecute a case in which severe environmental harm or significant environmental harm has occurred? Iain Batho, are you able to comment on that, given your expertise in prosecuting in this area?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 11 November 2025

Michael Matheson

Of course.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 11 November 2025

Michael Matheson

That is an interesting concept. From what you are saying, if you are looking to increase your chances of getting a conviction and we have both the section 40 offence and the offence that is in the bill, you are more likely to pursue prosecution under section 40, even though that will have a capped sentence, because that may be easier for you to prosecute. Is that what you are suggesting could happen?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 11 November 2025

Michael Matheson

My issue is that we have received evidence suggesting that there should be an amendment to the bill so that it could be applied only to senior management.