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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 20 April 2025
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Displaying 3120 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Performance Framework

Meeting date: 21 September 2021

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you. I am now going to open up the meeting to colleagues, and the first questions will be from the deputy convener, Daniel Johnson, to be followed by Michelle Thomson.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Performance Framework

Meeting date: 21 September 2021

Kenneth Gibson

The national performance framework has existed for 14 years. When it was created, it was considered to be world leading. Is Scotland a better place because of it and, if so, how? Will you evaluate that?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Performance Framework

Meeting date: 21 September 2021

Kenneth Gibson

We shall end on that positive note. I thank the Deputy First Minister and his officials for coming along and I thank the Deputy First Minister in particular for his expansive contributions and responses to questions.

I am especially pleased to have had the witnesses in the committee room in person. We have found that having witnesses in the room greatly improves our interaction with them. Today’s witnesses have greatly improved our understanding of the workings of the national performance framework.

Meeting closed at 11:24.  

 

 

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Interests

Meeting date: 21 September 2021

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Performance Framework

Meeting date: 21 September 2021

Kenneth Gibson

Under item 2, we will take evidence on the national performance framework. We are joined by John Swinney, the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Covid Recovery, who is no stranger to the finance committee, having attended myriad meetings of our predecessor committees over many years. He is accompanied by his officials from the Scottish Government: Barry Stalker, the head of the national performance framework unit; and Tim Ellis, the deputy director of the performance and outcomes division. I welcome our witnesses to the meeting.

Members have received a briefing paper from the clerks. I intend to allow up to 90 minutes for the session. Before we move to questions from the committee, I invite Mr Swinney to make a short opening statement, should he wish to do so.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2022-23: Public Finances and the Impact of Covid-19

Meeting date: 14 September 2021

Kenneth Gibson

Culture change is always a difficult challenge.

This will be my final question, as I want to let colleagues in. Ray Perman, you say in your submission:

“The RSE is concerned that new initiatives from the UK Government, including the Shared Prosperity Fund, Levelling Up Fund, and Community Renewal Fund will bypass the devolved administrations.”

Can you elaborate on those concerns?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2022-23: Public Finances and the Impact of Covid-19

Meeting date: 14 September 2021

Kenneth Gibson

I will move on to something that we have discussed. I am looking to find out from Gail Macgregor where the balance should be struck on local flexibility. In 2007 the Scottish Government abolished some 60 ring-fenced funds from the previous Labour-Lib Dem Administration and signed what is now fondly looked back on as the historic concordat of November 2007. The idea was that local flexibility would be restored across local government.

However, an issue arose, of course, for the Scottish ministers when they allocated funding for specific pots—for teacher numbers, for example. Local authorities would then decide that, as they had local flexibility, they would not spend the money on teacher numbers. The parliamentary party colleagues of those who had decided not to increase teacher numbers in specific areas would then attack the Scottish Government for failing to deliver on its manifesto commitment to increase teacher numbers. The Scottish ministers obviously thought, “We’re damned if we do and damned if we don’t.”

How do we balance that? The Scottish ministers do not want to be in the position of providing additional funding for specific areas of manifesto commitment policy yet being criticised for not delivering it. On the other hand, if they do not provide local authorities with flexibility, they will be criticised for that. Is there a way in which that can be balanced?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2022-23: Public Finances and the Impact of Covid-19

Meeting date: 14 September 2021

Kenneth Gibson

How can the Scottish Government fully fund local government, for example, if it is not fully funded through the block grant?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2022-23: Public Finances and the Impact of Covid-19

Meeting date: 14 September 2021

Kenneth Gibson

You make two points. The first is that the Government could use a wee bit of sleight of hand by, for example, not increasing budgets by the rate of inflation but instead sticking at cash levels, which would be a reduction in real terms. I thought that you would be a bit more heroic and give us an example, as Susan Murray did—and as Ray Perman, I am sure, is about to.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2022-23: Public Finances and the Impact of Covid-19

Meeting date: 14 September 2021

Kenneth Gibson

I wonder whether, if we had been asking those questions at the start of the industrial revolution, anybody would have said, “You know, we really need to get rid of some of these Clydesdales and start building some combine harvesters,” or something like that.

I hope that we will have an answer from Ray Perman on disinvestment. The committee has to produce a report with recommendations to the Government. It is one thing to say that we need to invest more in preventative spend and to disinvest in areas in which the outcomes are not great, but we look to organisations such as the RSE, the David Hume Institute and the Fraser of Allander Institute to give us some examples. Do you have any?