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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 21 April 2025
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Displaying 3120 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Service Reform and Christie Commission

Meeting date: 9 November 2021

Kenneth Gibson

Professor Roy, I would like you to elaborate on what Professor Mitchell said. You said in your submission:

“The lack of attention to delivery means that the Christie Commission has become almost an idealist document in the eyes of some rather than a useable guide for delivering public service reform in practice.”

Why is there a lack of attention to delivery?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Service Reform and Christie Commission

Meeting date: 9 November 2021

Kenneth Gibson

So reach is an issue, although there are pockets where things are happening. Professor Roy, where are we doing well? What pockets or areas can we learn from at this point in time?

11:30  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Interests

Meeting date: 9 November 2021

Kenneth Gibson

Good morning and welcome to the 10th meeting in 2021 of the Finance and Public Administration Committee. We have received apologies from Michelle Thomson, and I welcome Alasdair Allan to the meeting as her substitute. As this is the first time that Dr Allan has attended the committee, I invite him to declare any relevant interests.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Service Reform and Christie Commission

Meeting date: 9 November 2021

Kenneth Gibson

I have a question for Professor Roy, unless anyone else wants to come in, about an issue that we have covered only briefly. In your submission, you say that

“there needs to be more of a focus upon empowerment, particularly at a local level”,

and you ask about the reforms that are “hindering progress”. To what extent do people in communities want to be empowered? Do people want to have that level of responsibility? My experience from 30 years as an elected representative is that most people just want services to work efficiently and effectively. A minority want to be empowered and to have more say in their community, but a lot of people just want to get on with their lives. They want the rubbish to be collected—that is a pertinent point at the moment—and they want street lights to work, no potholes on the roads, good schools and a working NHS.

To what extent is empowerment a reality in ordinary people’s lives? How do we ensure that empowerment does not just mean passing down responsibilities, in a town of 10,000 people, to 20 to 30 people who might go to a monthly meeting?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Service Reform and Christie Commission

Meeting date: 9 November 2021

Kenneth Gibson

Communities can include thousands of people, but we are talking as though they have a collective view. I think that you mean that a number of people are vocal in those communities. Is that what you mean? We can compare that with elected representatives, who have probably been elected by several thousand people in those communities.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 9 November 2021

Kenneth Gibson

To be fair, I point out that I anticipated that that would be the answer. However, would it not be easier if that information was included in those lines in the reports? Another sentence to explain that would be helpful. That is why I asked the question.

I was going to ask you something else, but I cannot read my own writing, although I wrote it down only two minutes ago. I apologise—it might come to mind in the next minute or so. Oh! I see what it is, now.

I want to ask about the spring revisions. Many of the changes arise from changes in portfolios following the First Minister’s realignment of Cabinet and ministerial portfolios. Do you anticipate significantly fewer changes in the spring and subsequent revisions because of that, and that the next time we have a revision, there will be only relatively minor changes, as the pandemic eases?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Service Reform and Christie Commission

Meeting date: 9 November 2021

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you. Professor Mitchell, you talked about how difficult it is to change and to move people away from existing budgets. Obviously, it is easier to have preventative spend assisting change when budgets are growing rather than under stress and strain. What can be done even in such adverse circumstances?

There is clearly an issue whereby one can cynically say, “We will bring in these wonderful new changes, but we will have to take all the flak from those with vested interests now, and someone else will see the benefits in 10, 15 or 20 years.” That can be a selfish approach, because politics is often about the here and now. How would you address that issue in practical, pragmatic terms?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Service Reform and Christie Commission

Meeting date: 9 November 2021

Kenneth Gibson

I thought that you would.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Service Reform and Christie Commission

Meeting date: 9 November 2021

Kenneth Gibson

As Professor Mitchell will know, I have long been keen on decluttering the landscape and major public sector structural reform.

We will move on to Liz Smith, to be followed by Ross Greer.

12:00  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Service Reform and Christie Commission

Meeting date: 9 November 2021

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you. This will be my final question, because others want to come in.

In the main, the Christie commission’s report did not offer specific recommendations to the Government on how to progress the proposed programme of reform. That issue has been touched on already. Was that a weakness? Do you think that the reform acts that have come through in recent years, such as the Police and Fire Reform (Scotland) Act 2012, the Public Bodies (Joint Working) (Scotland) Act 2014 and the Community Empowerment (Scotland) Act 2015, are steps in the right direction?