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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 21 April 2025
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Displaying 3120 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 7 December 2021

Kenneth Gibson

I have one more question before I open it out to colleagues. In his speech, Paul Johnson said that, over the period since 2010,

“health spending will have increased by over 40%, education spending by less than 3%.”

That relates to south of the border, and implies a remarkable lack of priority afforded to the education system, with

“spending per student in FE and sixth form colleges”

remaining

“well below 2010 levels.”

He goes on to say:

“This is not a set of priorities which looks consistent with a long term growth strategy.”

What has been the impact on growth of those education policies over the past decade or so?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 7 December 2021

Kenneth Gibson

For our second budget scrutiny evidence-taking session, we are joined remotely by Carl Emmerson, the deputy director of the Institute for Fiscal Studies. Mr Emmerson is standing in for the director of the IFS, Paul Johnson, who is unwell—we wish him a swift recovery. I thank Mr Emmerson for making himself available to give evidence at short notice and welcome him to the meeting.

I remind members that our broadcasting team will operate their microphones, so they should not touch them. We have an hour for this evidence-taking session, so it would be helpful if members could keep their questions concise.

I invite Mr Emmerson to make a short opening statement.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 7 December 2021

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you. We allowed 60 minutes for this session, and we have taken just 15 seconds more than that. I thank Mr Emmerson for his short, sharp, direct and stimulating answers to our questions.

11:30 Meeting continued in private until 11:37.  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 7 December 2021

Kenneth Gibson

No matter whether we move away from or keep focusing on the numbers, the IFS has still talked a lot about fairness, stagnating incomes and lack of growth and productivity. What could or should the chancellor have done differently in October, and what lessons are there for Scotland, given that our budget process begins on Thursday?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 7 December 2021

Kenneth Gibson

What about Scotland? What kind of lessons can we learn for our budget from what the UK has done? We have had six weeks to reflect on what has happened, and the Scottish ministers will be setting out their proposals from Thursday. What pitfalls should they avoid and what kinds of things can they do in a positive sense, given the policy restrictions, of course?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 7 December 2021

Kenneth Gibson

The Institute of Fiscal Studies has said that policies have been led by the OBR. We will ask it about that.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 7 December 2021

Kenneth Gibson

I have a final question on taxation before I turn to colleagues. You state in your submission that the amount of gross domestic product that is raised in tax will be 36.2 per cent by 2026-27, which will be its highest since the early 1950s. You also state that taking his past two budgets together, the Chancellor of the Exchequer has

“raised taxes by more this year than in any single year since Norman Lamont and Ken Clarke’s two 1993 Budgets in the aftermath of Black Wednesday.”

You wrote the submission on 27 October. What impact do you think that will have on future growth projections, given that you have had six weeks in which to analyse the situation further?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Service Reform and Christie Commission

Meeting date: 30 November 2021

Kenneth Gibson

I do not doubt for one minute that there have been remarkable successes, which you have detailed, but what about areas in which cultural change does not seem to be happening to the same extent? How uniform is the cultural change?

I will give one example. A decade or more ago, there was concern about the high proportion of national health service spend that was going on older people who were being treated in hospital but who did not need to be there. We are talking about around £1.5 billion at that time. Obviously, we have had a pandemic and things have changed, but where are we in trying to change the cultural approach in areas such as the NHS? You may recall that there was resistance from health boards in that area. They said that, unless they got more money, they could not change the way in which they did things with the resources that they had. I am aware that you allocated £500 million over three years specifically to preventative spend at the time. How can we ensure that some of the remarkably successful examples that you have given can permeate the entire public sector in Scotland?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Service Reform and Christie Commission

Meeting date: 30 November 2021

Kenneth Gibson

I have one last question before I open up the session to colleagues around the table. Three weeks ago, our witnesses said that there is an opportunity in the wake of Covid-19 to empower and better resource communities. What does empowering communities mean to the Scottish Government? Does it mean empowering, within communities, small groups of those who tend to be active in community councils and elsewhere? How do we involve people more widely? Participatory budgeting has been a step forward, but what does community empowerment mean to the Scottish ministers?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Service Reform and Christie Commission

Meeting date: 30 November 2021

Kenneth Gibson

If the John Swinney of 2021 went back to 2007, he would tell his predecessor that he was yet to reach his prime—he says sookily.

11:45