Skip to main content

Language: English / Gàidhlig

Loading…

Seòmar agus comataidhean

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

Criathragan Hide all filters

Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 22 April 2025
Select which types of business to include


Select level of detail in results

Displaying 3120 contributions

|

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Fiscal Framework (Independent Report)

Meeting date: 11 January 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you—that was very helpful. Your submission is excellent and very readable, so you have already answered many of my questions, but I want to take the discussion to a wider audience of people who will not have seen your submission.

The information that you provide in figures 3.2 and 3.3 and in paragraphs 3.11 and 3.12 is compelling. At the end of paragraph 3.11, you say:

“the overall impact of tax devolution on the Welsh budget is forecast to be a surplus of £252 million a year by 2026-27.”

At the end of paragraph 3.12, you say that in Scotland, by contrast, the

“negative projected effect of tax devolution is estimated to reach £355 million a year by 2026-27.”

You go on to say that if separate block grant adjustments for different income tax bands were implemented in Scotland, although there would still be a deficit, it would be only £271 million. Although that figure is still high, it is £84 million lower than is currently projected.

Are those figures based solely on the type of block grant adjustment that is currently made or do they take account of the impact of economic growth? Are you advocating that Scotland should go down the road of lobbying for block grant adjustment powers for separate tax rates?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Fiscal Framework (Independent Report)

Meeting date: 11 January 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Well body-swerved.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Fiscal Framework (Independent Report)

Meeting date: 11 January 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Thanks.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Fiscal Framework (Independent Report)

Meeting date: 11 January 2022

Kenneth Gibson

That exhausts questions from committee members, but I have one to finish off. Section 2.3 of your paper lists the four taxes that Wales has gained in the past seven years: full devolution of non-domestic, or business, rates, the land transaction tax, the landfill disposals tax and the Welsh rates of income tax. If we look at the entire UK tax structure, a huge amount is still reserved to the United Kingdom, such as savings and dividends, income tax, VAT, national insurance, fuel duty, alcohol and tobacco taxes and inheritance tax. Where does Wales go from here? Is Wales settling in with the taxation that it has and seeing how things progress, or is it looking at whether it can devolve further taxes?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Fiscal Framework (Independent Report)

Meeting date: 11 January 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you. I open up the meeting for questions from colleagues.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Fiscal Framework (Independent Report)

Meeting date: 11 January 2022

Kenneth Gibson

The floor is yours, Ross.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Fiscal Framework (Independent Report)

Meeting date: 11 January 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Liz Smith was cut off in her prime earlier, so I will allow her back in for a question before we move on.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Fiscal Framework (Independent Report)

Meeting date: 11 January 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Good morning, and welcome to the first meeting in 2022 of the Finance and Public Administration Committee. I wish everyone a happy new year. We are meeting remotely today.

The single item on our agenda involves taking evidence from two panels of witnesses to inform our consideration of the forthcoming independent report on Scotland’s fiscal framework. Although the terms of reference and authorship of the report have yet to be agreed by the United Kingdom and Scottish Governments, we know that it will focus on block grant adjustments.

First, we will hear from Professor David Bell, David Eiser and David Phillips. David Phillips will join us a little later, at about 10.15 am. Our second panel will focus on arrangements for the Welsh fiscal framework approach to block grant adjustments, and Dr Ed Poole and Guto Ifan from Cardiff University will join us.

I welcome Professor Bell and David Eiser to the meeting. We have about 70 minutes for the discussion. I remind members that broadcasting staff will operate their microphones, so please allow a few moments before speaking to ensure that you will be heard. Members who wish to ask a supplementary question and witnesses who wish to respond should type R in the chat function, and I will bring them in.

I will begin the questioning. What should the independent review cover, and what should be the terms of reference for the independent report? Perhaps Professor Bell can go first.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Fiscal Framework (Independent Report)

Meeting date: 11 January 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Are you still alive, Daniel?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Fiscal Framework (Independent Report)

Meeting date: 11 January 2022

Kenneth Gibson

David Bell, you and the other two Davids produced a paper in November 2015, in which you said:

“it is impossible to design a block grant adjustment system that satisfies the spirit of the ‘no detriment from the decision to devolve’ principle at the same time as fully achieving the ‘taxpayer fairness’ principle: at least while the Barnett Formula remains in place.”

We have moved on more than six years since that paper was published. What are your thoughts now on trying to develop a fair block grant adjustment system? Has it become easier or more difficult and more complex?