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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 28 November 2024
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Displaying 2685 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Hold on a second—we are not at the time when it was written any more. I am talking about where we are now, which is more important as we move forward.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Kenneth Gibson

To be fair, having read all your written submissions, I think that you have more than misgivings. Correct me if I am wrong, but from what I am reading it is clear that there is strong opposition to the whole philosophy of the bill.

We are looking at the financial aspects of the bill. Sharon Wearing, what alternatives could the Scottish Government deliver if it was not going down this path?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Kenneth Gibson

I am looking for a one-word answer to get absolute clarification on that. Should the financial memorandum be revisited?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Kenneth Gibson

It is a one-word answer.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Kenneth Gibson

I have just been advised that there are 1,044 care homes in Scotland.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Kenneth Gibson

That is very important.

Paul, in your written submission, you said:

“If a new National Care Service cannot be fully funded, then the Scottish Government should agree to the last recommendation in the Independent Review of Adult Social Care, to consider and consult on options for raising new revenues to increase investment in social care.”

What kind of new revenues and options would we be talking about, potentially?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Kenneth Gibson

In your submission you say:

“the level of uncertainty and remaining unknowns do not allow for any certainty around the reasonableness and accuracy of the costs and savings included.”

You go on to say:

“The use of large ranges in costing do demonstrate the uncertainty within the”

financial memorandum. I put this question to the bill team when you were there: has the financial memorandum met the best estimates criteria?

11:15  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Kenneth Gibson

That might be the case in numerical terms, but people are saying that, for a bill of such magnitude, the consultation period was simply not long enough for them to provide the detailed responses that they would have liked to have given. Why was the length of the consultation constrained in the way that it was? For something so momentous—which includes, for example, the transfer of 75,000 staff—one would have thought that getting it right would be the most important thing and that the consultation could and should have been extended to allow for more detailed deliberations. As I mentioned, it took place over the summer, when there was a lot of disruption—people were still coming out of the pandemic, and they did not have the same ability to communicate with colleagues. Why was more time not given as a result to enable people to tease out a lot of the issues that have been raised?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Kenneth Gibson

In the consultation, you all responded to the question of whether there was adequate time for consultation with a one-word answer, which was “No”. You might have missed some of the previous evidence session today because you were travelling here, but I put that point to the bill team, who obviously tried to defend the length of the consultation period.

How much time do you feel that there could have been for the consultation? How could it have been improved? What further consultation could there be? I will ask all three of you the same questions. What confidence do you have in the level of engagement on co-design, which the bill team mentioned on at least four separate occasions in the previous session? They talked about being proactive and engaging with stakeholders and so on, but that does not appear to be your collective view. Perhaps you can talk us through that. Sarah Watters may want to go first on this occasion.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Kenneth Gibson

So you are saying that because so many people were consulted your own contributions have been hugely diluted as regards what the bill team took on board as the financial memorandum was being put together.