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On pensions, there is a real concern about viability, given that it is not known whether the national care service would be admitted as a member of the local government pension scheme, which is fully funded. Can you advise us of anything in that regard?

I have one final question. One positive aspect of the bill is the right to breaks from caring, but that has cost and staffing implications. CIPFA has said that

“There should ... be a role for professional assessment of need, as we see currently in social care and in the NHS”,

and that

“this will require financial investment in the professional workforce but is dependent on the workforce being available.”

To me, that seems more of an issue. We know that there is a chronic shortage of people working in care settings, with a figure of 300,000 across the United Kingdom. How deliverable will the measure be, given the staff issues? Will we be able to do it, given the workforce challenges?

So there might or might not be a withdrawal of 75,000 staff from local authorities. Is that what you are saying?

I am a big fan of single public authorities. We will now expand the discussion around the table to include Douglas Lumsden, to be followed by Michelle Thomson.

Thank you.

The reason I asked is that we have not had any previous discussion on that, so I wanted to touch on it.

Sharon, my question for you is about an issue that you raise in your written submission. You say that there is

“Concern that the recommendation to increase Free Personal and Nursing Care for self-funders will not necessarily deliver a reduction to the amount paid by self-funders.”

Can you expand a wee bit on what your concerns are?

I thank our witnesses for their contributions. We now move into private session.

We will no doubt question the next panel about that when they appear before us in a few minutes’ time.

The financial memorandum anticipates savings or efficiencies through shared services across the national care service, but it does not acknowledge the corresponding loss of economies of scale for local government. It has been pointed out to the committee—I have heard this directly from local authorities as well as read it in the submissions—that there will be an impact on the viability of some of our smaller local authorities. What do you think will be the unintended consequences with regard to the finances involved?

To be honest, though, it looks to me—and, I think, to many others—like we could be building a house on sand here. You have to get the primary legislation right first before you can think over the secondary legislation.

I am struggling to remember a time when I have previously received submissions that have been quite so excoriating with regard to the financial aspects of a bill. COSLA also made the point that no business case was produced before the publication of the draft bill,

“setting out the rationale, costs, benefits and risks of the National Care Service to facilitate meaningful scrutiny by Parliament”.

Why was that not done in the financial memorandum?

I know how bills have been produced in the past. Over the years, I have seen financial memoranda that have necessitated only one or two pages, and there has not been a lot of meat in them. However, this bill involves a monumental change over a number of years that will affect an extremely vulnerable section of all our communities. Surely much more in-depth thought should have been put into the financial aspects of the bill and its deliverability in financial terms.

That is my expression. That is how people feel. They feel that there has been a lack of consultation and almost that there is an imposition with regard to how it is going to work as opposed to people working together to create a system that might actually deliver over the next decade and beyond. That is the impression that I am getting. Colleagues might have a different view, but that is certainly the impression that I have got from the submissions to the committee and from speaking to my local authority and others.