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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 19 November 2025
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Displaying 751 contributions

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Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland: Spotlight on governance”

Meeting date: 24 September 2025

Keith Brown

I did not really expect that, but there you go.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland: Spotlight on governance”

Meeting date: 24 September 2025

Keith Brown

In what you have talked about, you have referred a couple of times already to accountability. If the public watch First Minister’s question time every week—I am sure that you will have to do that as well, whether you want to or not—all that they will see is questions being put to the First Minister, quite legitimately, about issues in the health service. Where do you think they see the accountability of 22 different health boards? Do they see that at all, or do they see it as the Government being responsible?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland: Spotlight on governance”

Meeting date: 24 September 2025

Keith Brown

It is just that, in my experience, if somebody has an issue with a health board or with health services in their area, the last people they go to will be the health board. They might access the complaint system, or they might go to councillors or MSPs, but the health board does not feature. Unless it is something like the closure of a hospital, the health board does not feature at all. That is my point. Is the health board a needless layer? I suppose that it is difficult for you to comment on this, because it is down to Government policy, but does the current configuration of 22 health boards, a number of which the public do not even know exist, add to accountability in any way?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland: Spotlight on governance”

Meeting date: 24 September 2025

Keith Brown

I am conscious of what you were saying earlier about the development of scrutiny of public appointments. Back in 2007, when I was first elected to the Parliament, a separate committee of the Parliament dealt with public appointments, and I think that I became the first convener of the then Standards and Public Appointments Committee, which joined the two functions together. Since then—I spent a decade of the intervening time making ministerial appointments—the role with regard to public appointments has hugely expanded, as has the role with regard to audit. It is a bit of a chimera that that is all down to ministers. Ministers’ freedom of choice is fundamentally limited, not least because of the code of conduct and the various things that you ask them to do and ensure are done. However, that is also due to the nature of civil servants who, perhaps naturally, will tend to focus on like-minded people. They are the ones who will draw up the shortlist by and large, although I concede the point that they will ask ministers for suggestions.

Given all the rules around appointments, to what extent is the environment in which ministers are being asked to operate in order to make appointments now counterproductive? As Jamie Greene mentioned, the freedom to take account of diversity is much more constrained now, because the candidate has to fit the model. Furthermore, we are operating in an environment in which the failure rate to appoint in the first round is 25 per cent.

Consideration of diversity in public appointments must include the ability to look from outside, to be objective about it and to think afresh. To what extent have you looked afresh at the impact of what you do in the appointments process?

10:45  

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland: Spotlight on governance”

Meeting date: 24 September 2025

Keith Brown

The point that I am making is that civil servants are absolutely assiduous at making sure that they comply with the code and that that might be an issue in itself. I was not making the point that feedback from ministers might inform some further thinking. How have you sought to ensure that you have looked at the issue as much as you can from outside? If the environment is such that there is a 25 per cent failure rate—there are other challenges—we are not getting this right.

I should say that the view of ministers, certainly when I was in post, was that your office is co-operative and is pragmatic in applying the rules. However, is the environment such that the freedom to get less conventional candidates even on to a shortlist is being nullified?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland: Spotlight on governance”

Meeting date: 24 September 2025

Keith Brown

If we are agreed on the fact that there is more than enough talent to fulfil all the roles, something is happening, given the failure rate and the inability to appoint to the positions as and when required. That would suggest that something in the system is not allowing us to tap into that talent.

On your point about our needing to step back and look more widely, have you drawn any comparisons with what happens in Wales, Northern Ireland or England in relation to those issues?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland: Spotlight on governance”

Meeting date: 24 September 2025

Keith Brown

Thanks very much.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland: Spotlight on governance”

Meeting date: 24 September 2025

Keith Brown

How would you justify the blurring as opposed to the elimination of boundaries? Why is blurring the right way to go?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland: Spotlight on governance”

Meeting date: 24 September 2025

Keith Brown

Would you say that it is systematic?

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Pre-Budget Scrutiny 2026-27

Meeting date: 18 September 2025

Keith Brown

I notice that a comparison is not made between Scotland and Wales or Northern Ireland, so is the comparison with England as supplemented by UK expenditure on acquisitions?