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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 22 December 2024
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Displaying 503 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 February 2023

Keith Brown

As Philip Lamont said, there will be demand—you are right—for justice social work services to step up. However, there is also demand on the court service, as has been described. I have mentioned the steps that we are taking to improve justice social work and the relatively uneven provision across the country, and we have seen improvements over the past year. Those have been achieved by providing additional resource. We have been involved in discussions on the bill with local authorities and Social Work Scotland. As ever, it will be for local authorities to decide how to deploy the resources that they have, but, at the bottom of this, there will be the statutory requirement for the court to have the services, and we will have to meet that. Our task is to make sure that we build on the additional resources that we have already provided to make sure that justice social work has the resources to do that across the country. That is the challenge.

As I said, we currently invest a total of £134 million in community justice services, including £123 million to local authorities. We have made a specific investment this year of £3.2 million to support bail assessment and supervision services. That is having an impact, as I said, in more local authorities. I cannot remember what we started from at the beginning of the year, but the service is now available in 30 authorities. Gearing up has already started. We know that it has further to go and that we have to provide the resourcing for it, but that will be detailed in a financial memorandum and will be a result of discussions that we will have with COSLA and Social Work Scotland.

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 February 2023

Keith Brown

It does not do so in the detail that you mentioned, but yes—the principle is that, when sentencing, courts should be able to take into account not only time served but a diminution of rights. I tried to answer this point earlier. If someone has been subject to electronic monitoring, that is a diminution of their rights, and it should be taken into account by the court in sentencing.

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 February 2023

Keith Brown

There is no plan to amend the bill, because the issue that has been raised by the chair of the Parole Board is not a result of the bill. He has raised it, and it is a concern for him—I do not deny that—but it is not an effect of the bill. That is the existing situation. We are willing to be and are engaged in discussions with the chair and, I think, the Parole Board—I am happy to confirm that—on the issue. It opens up other issues, which is why it is probably not suitable to be dealt with in the bill, but it is a live issue that we have been and are discussing with the chair.

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 February 2023

Keith Brown

Once again, it would be useful to hear from Jennifer Stoddart. You have probably gathered from contributions that I have made today, including the previous one and the one on Rona Mackay’s point about exclusions from emergency release, that there are areas on which we are listening to people. It is the way to do this. Through the bill, we are genuinely trying to find solutions that we all agree on. We are still involved in the discussion, but for the reason that you mentioned, directing the Parole Board is a very tricky area for us to get involved in, given its independent powers. Perhaps Jennifer wants to add to that with specific reference to the evidence that has been mentioned.

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 February 2023

Keith Brown

If you think about the emergency release powers that were used two years ago, you will recall the caveat that prison governors would essentially have a veto for an individual prisoner whom they did not think it was right to release. It is about recognising, as Jennifer mentioned, the Prison Service’s expertise. There is closer experience in the Prison Service than anywhere else, in fact, so it is important to keep that expertise.

12:00  

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 February 2023

Keith Brown

It is not stated in that level of detail, but the principle is there.

Perhaps Philip Lamont will add to that.

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 February 2023

Keith Brown

If I am getting this right, I think that, if somebody is released on temporary licence and they breach that licence, they can be recalled for that reason. If they commit an offence, that is a breach of their licence conditions. It is the same if someone is paroled: they are paroled on licence and, if they breach their parole requirements, they can be subject to a recall at that stage. That power is there in law. I am not sure that it has to be exercised by either the Parole Board or the Prison Service; it is a consequence of them breaching their licence.

Given that we are talking about a point of law, perhaps Jennifer wants to add to that.

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 February 2023

Keith Brown

To return to the first question that was asked about the issue, it is not an effect of the bill.

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 February 2023

Keith Brown

On Philip’s point, one of the criticisms that was rightly raised last year is that somebody might be on remand for a period that is longer than the sentence that they eventually receive; that somebody who was on remand and kept in custody with other criminals could be found not guilty; and that somebody on remand could receive a non-custodial sentence, meaning that we have kept them in custody for that period even though the crime for which they were convicted was judged by the courts to be deserving of a non-custodial sentence. The measure is to capture that as well.

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 February 2023

Keith Brown

As many witnesses have said, there is no question but that there will be a resource demand, especially on justice social work. The bill’s ambitions have to be met by that resource provision being in place. It will take time to make sure that that happens in advance of the bill’s commencement. We must minimise any delay. That is the intention and, of course, it is the Government’s responsibility, along with others, to make sure that those things are in place.

Let us say, however, that there was a delay in receiving a justice social work report—for a case for which there would not previously have been a report—and that that person could then get bail. That delay of hours—possibly a day—must be compared with the number of days, weeks or months, even, that somebody might be on remand. There is a substantial benefit to be had there. I have given you some of the figures already. We have said that we would put more money in this year—I think that it is an extra £15 million, split into two chunks of £11.8 million and £3.2 million—for the specific purpose of increasing our bail supervision capacity. That is the way in which we intend to meet it, and we are not at all denying that it will present a resource demand.