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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 25 November 2024
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Displaying 1467 contributions

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COVID-19 Recovery Committee

Ministerial Statement and Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 3 February 2022

John Swinney

A number of points have to be made in response to that question. First of all, we have had a global pandemic that has affected the delivery of healthcare for the past two years. The committee must be careful that it does not forget about the fact that we have had a very disruptive global pandemic that has put enormous pressure on our health service. I make the point bluntly to the committee that we cannot just wish away the past two years, because they have been hugely disruptive to the health service.

Secondly, throughout the pandemic, the health service has maintained as large a range of core services as possible. Some treatments—for example, for cancer—have been sustained throughout the pandemic. There has been less capacity to provide elective treatments, because we have had to allocate capacity to deal with the pandemic. Indeed, I am reminded that there has been significant resistance to some of the Government’s measures to protect capacity in the health service by putting restrictions on the general population. Some of these measures have been resisted in Parliament. However, if the Government had not done that, even more hospital capacity would have been used up dealing with Covid rather than other cases. Therefore, hard choices have had to be made. I regret the fact that, as a consequence of that, some members of the public are waiting longer for treatment than they should have to.

Thirdly, there is a recovery programme under way to ensure that people can receive the treatment to which they are entitled. That work is under way now, and elective treatment is being expanded. The more that we can suppress Covid numbers and Covid hospital admissions, the more scope there is for other treatments to be taken forward.

Finally, in relation to the publication of data on those who are waiting for treatment, waiting times data is made available on, I think, a monthly basis. Is that correct?

COVID-19 Recovery Committee

Ministerial Statement and Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 3 February 2022

John Swinney

I would contest a bit of what Mr Fairlie has put to me. Thinking back over my time in Parliament, I came in here—my goodness, what is it?—23 years ago, when death rates from cancer, heart disease and stroke were significantly worse than they are today. Successive Governments concentrated their messaging and measures on proactive interventions to try to address that. For example, screening programmes were introduced, which raised awareness about the degree of risk that individuals faced in relation to particular conditions. Messaging campaigns were undertaken to raise public awareness about symptoms and signs, and the availability of screening programmes, in order to try to reduce the number of deaths.

Those programmes have, by and large, delivered better outcomes. Obviously, they have not taken away the risks entirely—sadly, people still die from those conditions. Nonetheless, as a consequence of the investments that were made in messaging to raise awareness, fewer people are dying from those causes.

I say to Mr Fairlie that, just now, we have to focus public attention on Covid because of the threat that it continues to pose to our population. Nevertheless, there are other threats out there, and we absolutely need to raise awareness of them and to get the public to comply in their behaviour to ensure that those threats can be properly addressed.

COVID-19 Recovery Committee

Ministerial Statement and Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 3 February 2022

John Swinney

I think that the experience of the pandemic, and the fact that many thousands of our fellow citizens have had to work from home, has demonstrated the potential for different models of working. For some people, working from home has been beneficial—they have been able to organise their lives in a way that has enabled them to sustain their lives and undertake all the rest of what various people have to fit into their days, so they may have a slightly less congested life as a consequence.

For others, it has not been successful; it has been a challenge. Many people have missed social interaction in an office or other working environment. There are obviously economic implications for town centres in terms of footfall—as you say, convener—but there are benefits from a reduction in traffic movement. In my anecdotal experience, I have found that the journey into Edinburgh by car, which I make reasonably frequently, is a good deal more straightforward than it has been for most of the past 10 years of my life. There are ups and downs.

Part of the response has to come at an individual business level. Businesses have to work out their way of working, and they should do so in dialogue with their staff. The Government is certainly not going to prescribe a model that must prevail; it would be inappropriate for us to do so. Nonetheless, we encourage hybrid working in the context of the pandemic, and we encourage employers to discuss the subject with their teams.

Equally, as public authorities—both Government and local authorities—we have to look at the appropriate future strategies for town centres. They have been facing challenges for many years—what is happening now is not a new phenomenon. The upsurge in online trading has changed much of the approach to town centres. Nevertheless, there has been a number of imaginative redevelopments and repurposing of town centres as places of leisure and residence as opposed to exclusively retail environments. Such repurposing is possible, and the Government is engaging with a range of local authorities and communities on what that might look like. We will work with public authorities as effectively as we can to try to address those issues.

COVID-19 Recovery Committee

Ministerial Statement and Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 3 February 2022

John Swinney

We have gone to a model of hybrid working. We have more civil servants back in the formal office environment this week, in line with the guidance that the Government has set out. The permanent secretary made it clear that the approach to hybrid working should take its course, and staff are working on that basis as we speak. The Government has followed the guidance that we have issued for others, and that is being applied across the working environment.

COVID-19 Recovery Committee

Ministerial Statement and Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 3 February 2022

John Swinney

Well, where do I start with that one? There were moments in my tenure as Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills when—believe you me—I would have loved to exercise more control over local authorities on their performance on education.

The scenario that Mr Rowley puts to me is that the Government should empower local authorities. The Government has no need to empower local authorities to do those things, because they have the statutory responsibility for the delivery of education and the maintenance of the education estate.

Some months ago, local authorities were invited by the Government to set out what steps they were taking to improve ventilation. All the responsibility and scope lies exclusively in the hands of local government. The Scottish Government has made resources available to local authorities to help them to fulfil their statutory obligations in maintaining the school estate and ensuring that good ventilation is available.

There is no centralised control on ventilation. There is guidance that is formulated having taken expert advice. That will be signed off by the Covid-19 education recovery group, which of course includes local authorities—they are heavily represented on that group and will be heavily involved in the formulation of the guidance. The education secretary has previously reported to the Parliament on the feedback that she has received from local authorities about the steps that they are taking in relation to the improvement of ventilation.

Mr Rowley also put to me the issue of face coverings in schools. There is a different set of circumstances in that regard. The school-age population, whom we are continuing to require to wear face coverings, is less vaccinated than the rest of the population, because of the timing of the advice from the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation. Looking at the infection levels, we can clearly see a higher preponderance of omicron infection among younger people in general—that is a summary position, but it is generally the case—and in the absence of high enough levels of vaccination, because of the JCVI advice, we have judged it proportionate to maintain the wearing of face coverings in schools. Of course, the Government will review the issue regularly, but we consider such a move to be proportionate in protecting young people and staff in the school environment.

COVID-19 Recovery Committee

Ministerial Statement and Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 3 February 2022

John Swinney

In formulating any guidance, the Government draws on evidence from a range of sources, considers that evidence and makes appropriate judgments. I know from chairing the education recovery group for a sustained period over the past few years that we engage significantly with local authorities on all aspects of the formulation of that guidance. Local authorities will be involved in the development of this thinking.

As I said in my earlier answer to Mr Rowley, the Government has sought from local authorities an assurance that they are taking all the necessary steps to configure their estate and ensure appropriate ventilation. That will vary from classroom to classroom and from school to school. I accept Mr Rowley’s point that, fundamentally, this issue has to be handled at local level, but that is exactly what the Government has done.

COVID-19 Recovery Committee

Ministerial Statement and Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 3 February 2022

John Swinney

I would certainly be very much against that, as I do not think that it is fair work practice to lean on one’s employees, to use the terminology that Mr Whittle used—that is not the way to think about the world at all. Many business organisations now realise that it is possible to operate in a different fashion and to perhaps have a more productive working environment. Certainly, given some of the challenges that people face in relation to their travel time to work and all the rest of it, some of that time could be saved and could be put to more productive use. In essence, the best way to ensure that the correct approach is taken is by having dialogue between employers and employees.

COVID-19 Recovery Committee

Ministerial Statement and Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 3 February 2022

John Swinney

We should certainly not be relaxed about it, and we should not resign ourselves to that being the case. That is why every possible attempt is being made to invite people to get the booster vaccination. For example, in the run-up to the turn of the year, the volume of messaging and communication to encourage people to come forward for the booster was colossal, and we made significant progress in that respect. We were within clipping distance of 80 per cent of the eligible population being reached by 31 December.

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We are now deploying a range of other interventions, including writing directly to everybody who has been vaccinated with the first and second doses but has not yet had the booster dose to encourage them to get it and provide them with the means of doing so. Extensive walk-in facilities are still available all around the country, particularly in our cities, to make sure that people have ready access to opportunities of that type. A variety of steps have been taken in relation to communication and practical availability to make sure that people have access to vaccination, and that is not something that we should give up on.

COVID-19 Recovery Committee

Ministerial Statement and Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 3 February 2022

John Swinney

I am grateful to the committee for the opportunity to discuss the recent developments and updates to Parliament on Covid-19.

As the First Minister set out on Tuesday, recent data continues to give grounds for optimism. The situation that we are now in is much less severe than we had anticipated—although it is important to note that case numbers remain high and that we have seen increases in some age groups.

The significant fall in cases during the first three weeks of January is now reflected in a fall in the number of people who are being admitted to hospital. Thankfully, the number of people with Covid in intensive care has also reduced. Those improving trends are a result of the booster vaccination programme, the proportionate measures that we introduced in December 2021 and the willingness of the public to adapt their behaviour. That has enabled us to remove virtually all the additional protective measures that were introduced in December.

We are continuing our cautious approach to lifting protective measures. This week, we issued guidance for employers on hybrid working, where that can be done safely. From 11 February, fully vaccinated travellers will no longer need to take a test on their arrival into Scotland.

This week, the Cabinet agreed to retain the wider baseline measures, including the Covid certification scheme, the collection of contact details in hospitality settings and the requirement to wear a face covering in many indoor places. We are also asking the public to continue to take lateral flow tests before mixing with people from other households and to ensure that they report their results online. Those measures are important while the national health service remains under acute pressure. The number of people in hospital with Covid is falling, but it is still double what it was just before Christmas.

The advisory sub-group on education and children’s issues met recently, refreshed guidance was published on Tuesday, and we will monitor the advice on face coverings in schools and early years settings. The group will consider the issue again at its meeting on 8 February.

Covid vaccinations have now started for five to 11-year-olds who are at the highest clinical risk and who are household contacts of someone who is immunosuppressed, in line with the most recent advice from the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation. Flu vaccinations have now also resumed for higher-risk groups after being paused in December 2021.

As we look ahead to spring, we can continue to be optimistic, and evidence shows that we may be entering a calmer phase of the pandemic. The revised strategic framework will be published after the February recess, setting out in detail our approach to managing Covid more sustainably in future phases of the pandemic in which the virus will—we hope—become endemic.

I am happy to answer questions from the committee.

COVID-19 Recovery Committee

Ministerial Statement and Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 3 February 2022

John Swinney

I would be surprised at that. I do not have the data in front of me but I will explore it and, if there is some that I can share with the committee, I will happily do so. The move to hybrid working is welcome and I know that civil servants will embrace it, as the leadership of the organisation has done in setting out what we expect of staff.