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Realistically speaking, I think that any actual practical changes would be made in the next session of Parliament, but we could lay the groundwork in this session for a willingness to create some consensus on which to move forward. Without that, we could have yet another parliamentary session with property values another five years out of date, no change to the bands and no movement on the issue.

I am keen to explore the art of the possible here. I think that you are right: everybody accepts that there is a problem and that changes are required. However, there are ways of giving such changes a very soft landing that would bring the public with us. Therefore, this is not just about building political consensus in order to do something to the public; that is why the consultation and the public events that we are holding are very much about engaging the public themselves on the options, on what would be acceptable, on what could make the system fairer and on how we ensure that any change lands in a way that deals with some of the obvious problems that might arise.

It would be quite an achievement to create a better landing space for any actual proposals, which could then go forward into the next parliamentary session. It will require a lot of detailed work, including technical work, and it will then require legislation, which, by its nature, will require consensus to some degree.

If there are recommendations from the committee’s work, we will be keen to embrace those as much as we can, as part of cross-party working.

There will be a cost; we absolutely need to recognise that. There may then be an on-going cost—is it a system that is going to be updated, and what would be the timeframe for those updates? An investment will need to be made. Basing that on the Welsh experience is not a bad starting point, but the change will require investment.

It is worth dusting down some of the work that was done rather than repeating it. The fact that there was a conclusion that local tax had to include some form of domestic property tax is not unhelpful. There is a lot in the commission’s work that could be drawn on, but we need to address the fundamental point that, by the nature of the issue, any change will progress only if it has enough political support. I keep coming back to that, but it is just a fact. Katie Hagmann and I, in our respective roles, are keen to see what is the art of the possible. Doing nothing and having a position of no change is not sustainable. If we all agree on that, we need to consider where we can move to.

We have yet to look at narrowing down the details, so I do not want to be overly prescriptive. However, my worry about that goes back to the worry that I expressed earlier about creating division rather than consensus. My instinct is that we are more likely to build consensus by adding more bands to make the council tax banding system more progressive.

There is also the issue of the complexity of delivery. Any major change or completely new system would be complex and take a lot of time and resource effort. There would have to be quite a lot of advantages to doing that instead of building on the system that we have already set up. I would be more drawn towards making incremental improvements than to trying to do something that would be challenging.

Yes. The figure could be much lower than that. The technical work will give us much more information. I ask Ellen Leaver to say something about that.

We have made demonstrable progress on the fiscal framework ahead of the 2025-26 budget, which has been acknowledged. The way that the budget is negotiated and discussed between ourselves and local government has been transformed. I think that Katie Hagmann and I have had about 15 meetings about the budget. The process has been quite resource intensive and there has been an open-book approach. The principles of the fiscal framework have underpinned the process and are being put into practice. I am keen to publish a version of the fiscal framework jointly with COSLA, but we need agreement on that. The discussions are on-going and we are keen to move forward on that. I think that that is where things have got to. Do you agree, Ellen?

That is a fair challenge. My party has looked at various options for replacing council tax. For a time, we were focused on looking at whether there could be a local income tax alternative, but the problem was that that would not have raised enough money. Essentially, as the commission noted in 2015, we concluded that there needs to be a property element to local taxation.

We now have a Parliament of minorities, so the only way to move forward is to try to build consensus. However, with something as fundamental as council tax reform, even if we did not have to build consensus, I think that doing so would be the right thing to do. At the end of the day, we do not want to be seen to have developed something behind closed doors and to say, “Here it is—take it or leave it.” Even if we were able to do that, I do not think that that would land in the right way. The reform must stand the test of time, so we need to make sensible incremental changes that create a fairer system. That system might not be perfect, but people should feel that it is much better than the one that we have at the moment. I am keen to continue those discussions.

We would have to look at that as part of the modelling, to ensure that we were cognisant of that. Katie Hagmann referred to some of the very small local authorities and the relative value of council tax as part of their financial base. That brings us into other spaces, such as reform, and I am aware of really good discussions between Clackmannanshire, Falkirk and Stirling councils about shared services and how we can work more closely together. We recognise that that is just one part of the jigsaw; there are plenty of other things that we need to look at, and that work needs to be led by local authorities. For example, we recognise the on-going demand for services, which will continue to increase, not least in areas such as social care, so how do we manage that in the future? What we are discussing today is just one part of that picture.

As always, Ellen.