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My question is why it has taken so long. Why would it take to 2025-26? Is that just how long it takes to build a prison? It seems an extraordinarily long timetable. That means that, for five years, until we imprison fewer people, the largest prison in the estate, which is over capacity, will still take the wrong prisoners—it is meant to be a short-term prison but it is taking long-term prisoners—and we will not be able to get prisoners out of their cells. What is the explanation for why it will take until 2026? I thought that it was 2025, but now you are saying that it is 2026.

Good morning, everyone. My question concerns the conditions in which prisoners on remand and other prisoners are held in our prison estate. I am sure that I do not need to say it, but—for the record—we have among the highest numbers in Europe of prisoners on remand. Prisoners are on remand for an average of 18 months. Notwithstanding the pandemic, the figures are alarming.

I am interested to hear answers from quite a few members of the panel. Wendy Sinclair-Gieben, Dr Katrina Morrison from the Howard League, Phil Fairlie and Teresa Medhurst might like to answer the question. Is it time to consider specific rights, in particular for remand prisoners, but also for the prison population generally, in relation to being out of cells for a certain amount of time in a day? I am certainly keen that all prisoners have the right to fresh air. I realise that there are capacity issues and estate issues.

I record my admiration for the work that is done by prison officers and others who are involved in running our prison estate. The papers that have been provided dig deep into the intricacies of having a rising and ageing population, and all the other things. I am very conscious of that.

I am interested in moving forward and looking to the future to where we would ideally like to be. Is it time to have specific enforceable rights—even a charter of rights for prisoners—such that they would be allowed out of their cells once a day for a prescribed amount of time to get fresh air?

I suggest that we start with Wendy Sinclair-Gieben, who is the chief inspector of prisons.

Can you confirm that you referred to a figure of 80 per cent to 85 per cent?

My question is for Teresa Medhurst. I understand that Barlinnie is the largest prison in the estate. It has had some refurbishment through the years and I visited it a few times before it was refurbished. I am a bit surprised that it has taken so long for the replacement to come around given Barlinnie’s importance to Glasgow and the west of Scotland. The prison was meant to house mainly short-term prisoners and, as I saw from the piece on STV that was referred to earlier, it is continually over capacity.

We cannot possibly fulfil any of the aspirations that we talked about unless prisons are modernised. I ask you to talk me through what is happening. I believe that the replacement will not be completed until 2024-25. I have lodged a parliamentary question on the matter but I am still waiting on an answer. I know that it took some time to secure the land for the prison but there seems to me to be quite a delay between 2021 and 2024-25. Will you speak to why it will take so long? Do you agree that there is an imperative to replace Barlinnie prison as soon as possible?

Yes. It is for the chief executive.

We have Allister Purdie.

That is your evidence. When we built Kilmarnock and Addiewell prisons, they took four years to complete. Is that right?

I am sorry to dwell on this. Obviously, I do not know anything about the design of prisons—no, I know a little bit about it because I remember the design of Addiewell and Kilmarnock and how it was changed to make prison officers’ lines of sight easier. Does it take three years up and down the country to design a prison? Would it be the same in England or Wales?

I will make it quick. To be honest, I am not sure who is best placed to answer this, but I hope that the witnesses can help me.

We have heard a lot of important stuff, including from Ashley Cameron, about secure care, which probably needs to be reviewed and so on. I know that we are going to come on to discuss deaths in custody, but I want to highlight the case of William Lindsay—also known as William Brown—although I am sure that there are others. He was a 16-year-old who should have been referred to secure care and not to a prison—everyone involved in the case was clear about that. However, my understanding is that secure care was not available.

Has anything happened since that case? I know that there have been other cases to deal with—there seems to be a lack of secure care. I believe that we are only mandated to a maximum of 70 or 80 per cent, leaving the remainder for English placements. I do not understand why we have done that, so can anyone help me understand it? Does anyone have any answers as to whether we have actually acted since that case? To me, it is a death that could have been avoided.

I thank the minister for her thorough explanation. I do not have any questions, but it is worth noting that the minister specifically said that there will be no immunity in relation to road traffic offences, which was an issue that sprung to my mind.