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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 5 November 2024
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Displaying 1007 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 15 May 2024

Pauline McNeill

I understand. That is helpful.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 15 May 2024

Pauline McNeill

That is really interesting and helpful, because we thought that there might be a legal reason for that. Now that we know that there is not, we can pursue that.

I want to keep using an example—a simple example. On the face of it, if a police officer is accused of assault, that is a criminal case that may go to court, and the court may find the officer not guilty.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 15 May 2024

Pauline McNeill

The PIRC has said that it is largely meeting those targets but that you can take up to six months.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 May 2024

Pauline McNeill

Oh, yes, you did say that.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 May 2024

Pauline McNeill

That was helpful.

I am trying to get my head around the range of complaints and misconduct that could be covered by the bill; indeed, I asked the previous panel the same question. I am trying to understand this by highlighting the example of a case from a long time ago—the Emma Caldwell case—and asking whether, in your view, it would happen today. In that case, the police investigation has been exposed as being thin and as having gone down the wrong lines of inquiry; indeed, the family themselves could clearly see that the police were investigating the wrong people. Would this bill help in any way, or would other provisions prevent that happening today?

It is all very well talking about hypothetical situations, but we have examples of cases where the police have failed. I know that you cannot account for what happened all that time ago, but I am just trying to understand this. To me, as a legislator, there does not seem to be much point in passing this bill unless it can fix what has gone wrong.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 May 2024

Pauline McNeill

It will not change it.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 May 2024

Pauline McNeill

Good morning. I wanted to examine the question of what difference the bill would make to the duty of candour and ethics in relation to current codes for police officers. Police Scotland is very concerned about this and you will have read its evidence. Police Scotland says that the insinuation is that most police officers do not currently abide by some code of ethics and all the rest of it. You probably read that. I am trying to discern what difference the bill would make.

Kate Wallace, you said several things to Russell Findlay. The first thing that you said was that you have had some cases where there has been sexual exploitation by police officers, and I just want to separate out the different things. Sexual exploitation is obviously a criminal act. Do you have concerns that there are gaps here when there is a criminal act by a police officer in some of your cases?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 May 2024

Pauline McNeill

I just wanted to be clear about that.

I am not talking about the complaints process, because it is clear that, when complaints take a long time, that is unacceptable, and it is something that could be fixed.

I am sure that you, of all people, are very familiar with the tragic circumstances of the Emma Caldwell case, as we all are, but one of the issues with that case is the way in which the police investigated it. It was a long time ago. Is there anything in the bill that would change anything about the way in which that case was investigated, simply being that the police followed lines of inquiry that did not stand up and, eventually, 20 years on, that became clear? Is there anything in the bill that would allow for a complaint or anything? I am trying to come at it with a view to what difference the bill would make to big cases like that.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 May 2024

Pauline McNeill

You said that senior positions in an independent body should be taken by retired police officers and not by serving police officers. Do you accept that, as in all professions, particularly where there are complaints, people would need some expertise? Someone who has never served as a police officer would not understand what the job was. Surely an understanding of the role of a police officer in Scotland would have to be factored in when such a body was designed.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 May 2024

Pauline McNeill

It would be helpful for us to understand how that body would operate.