Seòmar agus comataidhean

Good morning. Thank you very much for the opportunity to provide evidence on the bill. The bill has a dual purpose: part 1 relates to criminal justice modernisation and part 2 relates to domestic homicide and suicide reviews. Both parts support the Scottish Government’s ambition to deliver effective and sustainable public services. There is broad stakeholder support for the bill, and we have engaged extensively with key justice partners and third sector groups, whose views have shaped the policy positions in the bill.

Part 1 of the bill seeks to make permanent some of the temporary measures that are set out in the Coronavirus (Recovery and Reform) (Scotland) Act 2022. Those provisions have been in force for some time—they were introduced in 2020—and have become firmly embedded in Scotland’s justice system, making many justice processes more efficient and reducing costs. They deliver tremendous benefits to various users of the justice system, including victims, witnesses, the accused and partners such as the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service, the courts and the police.

The bill’s intention is to enable partners to maximise their resources and deliver services in an effective, efficient and sustainable way. I have listened carefully to the evidence that has been presented over the past few weeks and acknowledge that there is some work to be done to ensure that the system benefits everyone. However, even where there are practical issues to be worked through, the legislative underpinning provided in the bill is essential to allow pilots to be tested and for a sustainable model to be explored.

Part 1 also introduces two new provisions that will support the greater use of digital technologies. The provisions on digital productions and authentication of copy documents are key to on-going work such as the summary case management pilot and the roll-out of body-worn video.

The second purpose of the bill is to create the statutory framework for Scotland’s first national multi-agency domestic homicide and suicide review model. That presents a real opportunity to realise a model that so many of our stakeholders across justice, health, local government, social work, the third sector and academia have contributed to and worked towards for a considerable period.

It is right that we recognise the work of the multi-agency domestic homicide and suicide review task force, its sub-group, the task and finish groups and all those who have responded to the consultation and targeted engagement, particularly those with lived experience of domestic abuse and those who have been bereaved by it. Collectively, that has informed the development of the model.

Although we appreciate that Scotland is the only jurisdiction in the United Kingdom not yet to have such a model, a benefit that comes from that is that we have been able to learn lessons from other jurisdictions, not only across the UK but internationally, in order to understand what works well and where the limitations are. That has also been central to the scope of the model, which I know has been subject to some debate, and I very much welcome the opportunity to talk it through.

I recognise that the deaths in the scope of the review model do not mirror the definition in the Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Act 2018. As the committee is aware, the 2018 act focuses more narrowly on relationships between partners and is about domestic abuse as an offence. However, the impact of domestic abuse reaches beyond the relationships that are set out in the 2018 act. The bill therefore focuses on that broader impact to better understand the full effect and create wider opportunities for learning in order to prevent the wide range of abusive domestic behaviour and future deaths.

The approach that we have taken to get to this point has been collaborative, open, transparent and evidence based—and that shall remain the case. I therefore see today as an opportunity to shape what is a significant and necessary piece of legislation on domestic homicide and suicide. The committee has always played an important role in shaping and improving legislation, and I look forward to hearing the committee’s views on the bill and on how we can collectively deliver a more efficient and effective justice system that works for everybody.

Our justice partners—in particular, the Scottish Courts and Tribunals Service—have been acutely aware of the risks in and around digital exclusion and have their own policies in relation to that. Notwithstanding what I said earlier—heaven forfend that we return to wet signatures and so on—it is important to emphasise that the traditional way of communicating still exists. The bill does not remove the scope to communicate in the traditional way, if that is required; in fact, it simply makes permanent the temporary measures that are currently in force. It also retains the Lord Justice General’s power to give a direction that the provisions should not apply to specific documents. That power has never been used, but the flexibility is available, should it be required.

Good morning. The draft International Organisations (Immunities and Privileges) (Scotland) Amendment Order 2025 is an order in council made by His Majesty under powers in the International Organisations Act 1968. The nature of the reserved/devolved divide means that, where privileges and immunities relate to devolved matters in Scotland, the function of advising His Majesty in relation to the order is devolved. As such, the order deals only with matters that are within the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament.

The purpose of the order is primarily to ensure that the relevant privileges and immunities are in place for two international organisations: the European Forest Institute and the Global Combat Air Programme International Government Organisation, which is otherwise known as GIGO.

Committee members might recall that we committed to correct a drafting error in the previous immunities and privileges order, and the order fulfils that commitment, too.

To assist the committee, I will say a little more about the background to the order. The European Forest Institute—EFI—and the United Kingdom Government have signed a host country agreement to formally establish an EFI office in London, which requires certain privileges and immunities to function and operate effectively. The EFI is an international organisation that was set up to conduct research and provide policy advice on forest-related issues.

The global combat air programme—GCAP—is a multinational initiative that is led by the UK, Japan and Italy to jointly develop next-generation fighter aircraft by 2035. GIGO will function as the executive body of GCAP, with the legal capacity to place contracts with industrial partners. Defence manufacturing in Scotland is fundamental to our national engineering and manufacturing sector, and the global combat air programme is an important opportunity for Scotland that will drive future investment. The order in council forms part of the secondary legislation that is needed to establish GIGO.

As is common in recent privileges and immunities orders, the order provides for exceptions to immunity in respect of road traffic offences and accidents. Approving the order will correct a historical error and, importantly, ensure that we are able to meet our international obligations. As a good global citizen, it is the responsibility of the Scottish Government to bring the order to the Parliament for consideration. I commend it to the committee.

When it comes to the budget, any cabinet secretary will want to negotiate the best possible deal for their portfolio in their direct engagement with the finance secretary, and I am very pleased that the resource budget for policing will be increasing by £57 million and that the overall investment is £1.62 billion.

That said, any cabinet secretary also looks beyond what they negotiate for their own portfolio. You look at what investment colleagues have in their areas—in this case, health—and how it can be aligned with your own work. I always take a pragmatic approach to this; I am less bothered about trying to carve out or capture part of another portfolio’s budget than I am about how that budget is being directed and aligned.

Thank you, convener, and happy new year to you and everybody on the committee.

I am grateful for the opportunity to speak about some of the work that I have outlined in my correspondence to the committee, and for the opportunity to principally focus on policing and mental health. In relation to mental health concerns, the Scottish Government believes that there should be no wrong door to accessing unplanned or urgent mental health support, and that anyone in need of that support must receive the right care in the right place at the right time.

At the outset, however, it is only right that I acknowledge that not everyone who may have a mental health-related concern is vulnerable or in distress. There are many circumstances not related to mental health in which a person may be classed as vulnerable, unable to protect themselves or at risk of harm and exploitation.

It is also important to acknowledge that distress can be a normal response to life-challenging situations, and that does not mean that everyone experiencing distress will need formal mental health intervention. In any and all of those circumstances, individuals should be able to access the service that is best placed to meet their needs.

However, there are undoubtedly continued concerns about the demand that mental health-related calls in particular place on policing. We are working with partners, including Police Scotland, to improve individuals’ experience of accessing support and to ensure that resources are deployed appropriately to reduce unnecessary demands on police officers.?

Since 2021, we have been working with partners, including health boards and Police Scotland, through the mental health unscheduled care network to improve the mental health unscheduled care response and to ensure that those in need of urgent or unplanned mental health care are directed to the most appropriate service and receive support quickly. That is being facilitated by the 24/7 availability of a mental health clinician in every health board for those who require urgent mental health assessment or an urgent referral to local mental health services. Those clinicians are available to front-line services, including Police Scotland, through local community triage pathways.

Through the development of the enhanced mental health pathway, we have enabled Police Scotland’s command and control centres to direct calls from individuals who have been identified as needing mental health advice and support to NHS 24’s mental health hub. In her update to the Scottish Police Authority in November, the chief constable acknowledged the impact of the pathway in helping to reduce demands on officers: 10,611 referrals to NHS 24 have allowed 54,328 officer hours to be redirected to other duties.

More broadly, we are working with a number of partners to deliver the actions in the mental health and wellbeing strategy’s first joint delivery plan and workforce action plan, which were published jointly with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities. They seek to create real and lasting change in the country’s mental health, with a whole-systems approach that has a renewed focus on prevention and early intervention.

In its thematic review of mental health demand on policing, HMICS recognised that mental health is a multifaceted issue that needs an effective whole-systems partnership response. HMICS set out a number of recommendations for Police Scotland, the Scottish Police Authority and the Scottish Government. As part of our commitment to implement the review’s recommendations, the Scottish Government, the Scottish Police Authority and Police Scotland have established a partnership delivery group, or PDG, which is working across organisational boundaries to identify and deliver support to individuals that can be delivered in a person-centred and trauma-informed way.

I am pleased to inform the committee that those on the group have worked together to support the Scottish Government to develop a framework for collaboration. The framework, which will very shortly be published, aims to promote—crucially—a multi-agency collaborative approach to improving local distress pathways. Alongside the framework, a mental health and policing action plan will be published, outlining numerous collaborative commitments across sectors, which will further bolster the PDG’s aim of improving the multi-agency approach to mental distress.

I extend my heartfelt thanks and gratitude to our partners for their support in developing the framework and collaborative commitments, and I acknowledge the tireless efforts of all those who continue to contribute to the delivery of mental health services, including our ambulance, policing and third sector partners, whose roles are crucial.

In all of this, partnership working is undoubtedly the key that will unlock many shared challenges. It is only by working together that we can deliver real, lasting and meaningful change. The Scottish Government remains fully committed to continuing the partnership approach that has been so crucial to the development of the framework and collaborative commitments, particularly as we move forward to implementation.

Policing is absolutely is a 24/7 service, but so is health—

It is a 24/7 service, although I acknowledge that some services are not available 24/7.

The work of the mental health unscheduled care network and partnership is particularly important in this area, and there is specific investment in and a strand of programmed work on unscheduled care with regard to mental health. Obviously, this forms part of the enhanced mental health pathway, and the use of the mental health index has been rolled out across Police Scotland, too.

However, I would point out that the police can access clinicians 24/7; in particular, they have access to the mental health hub via NHS 24, and, as I outlined in my opening remarks, that access can happen directly through the command and control centres. I would highlight, too, the work of the distress brief intervention programme, to which referrals can be made not just from the command and control centres but from an operational on-the-ground centre. Obviously, that might also involve third sector partners.

As for assessments of those who are impacted by substance misuse, I will ask Alastair Cook to address that matter, but my understanding is that things have moved on in the past decade or so—and certainly since Mr MacGregor and I were in the field—and that, unless someone’s functions and communication have been severely impacted by intoxication, assessments can still take place if the person has consumed substances. However, I will ask Dr Cook to say a wee bit more about that, because I think that you might find it interesting.

I believe that I do understand the direct impact that mental health-related calls and issues in our community have on policing. There is a reason why our work around mental health and policing features in the programme for government, and I hope that that gives out the strongest possible signal and demonstration that we take that range of matters very seriously indeed.

I am conscious of the evidence that has been given by the policing associations—the Scottish Police Federation and the Association of Scottish Police Superintendents—and the chief constable. I think that I mentioned earlier that the vast majority—87 per cent—of the 100,000 mental health-related calls that are received by the police involve no offence.

At the tail end of last year, when the chief constable gave evidence to the Scottish Police Authority in November, she mentioned the fact that, on a busy day, the police can get three to four calls a minute in relation to mental health, which equates to 600 police officers per year. That is a very stark statistic. From the adult support and protection work that I am involved in, I also know that in excess of 40,000 adult support and protection referrals are made, nearly 30 per cent of which come from the police.

I accept that too many people still go through the wrong door, if I can put it like that. However, we can demonstrate—the committee has heard evidence on this from a range of stakeholders—the breadth and depth of the work that is being done in this area. There needs to be clarity on people’s respective roles and functions, and I do not think such clarity always exists. I hear different views expressed by different stakeholders about what they think their partners should or should not be doing, but I am very conscious that, under section 32(a) of the Police and Fire Reform (Scotland) Act 2012,

“the main purpose of policing is to improve the safety and well-being of persons, localities and communities in Scotland”.

By its very nature, that is not a narrow responsibility.

I make it crystal clear that the whole purpose of my interest and commitment in this area of work is absolutely to improve services to individuals, but it is also to ensure that policing resources are deployed appropriately and that the demand on policing is reduced.

I will quote the outcomes from the work in North Lanarkshire with Q division of the police. I have visited the service. It has a triage opportunity whereby there is 24/7 access to a psychiatric liaison nurse. The result of that is that potential police attendance at A and E has reduced by 80 per cent. The North Lanarkshire community triage service has been used on 2,000 occasions. The latest figures for that are from 2023. It is a good demonstration of what can be achieved. It is a win-win for individuals, the police and the NHS, because there is a 24/7 service and people are referred to the appropriate service at the appropriate time.

I recognise the frustrations of the Association of Scottish Police Superintendents. I am not blind to those and I am not unsympathetic or insensitive in any way to them. However, 2025 is the crucial year for implementation. There is demonstrable progress, but it is clear that, without a whole-systems approach, organisational change will not happen on the ground.

The partnership development group, the action plan and the collaboration commitments are all about driving forward action and that whole-systems approach. Justice services do not operate in isolation, because you cannot pigeonhole people. To a great extent, how justice agencies interact and the service that they deliver depends on other services—social services and health services in particular. I hope that, by this time next year, the Association of Scottish Police Superintendents will feel more positive about the work and that it is making a demonstrable difference on the ground because 2025 will be a crucial year for embedding it and moving forward in outstanding areas.

The data dashboard that you heard evidence on earlier is owned by Police Scotland. That is an important piece of work, and we support Police Scotland’s work on it. My understanding is that it brought that part of its work to fruition, as it committed to do, by the end of last year.

Our focus in 2025 is on implementation, and I have to acknowledge the role of data in that, particularly in understanding the nature of demand and the geographical variation. It is about considering data, but not just police data in isolation. I have heard, and the committee may have heard, the chair of the Scottish Police Authority, Martyn Evans, speak often about how important it is that data systems across agencies speak to one another and are linked. That is important because, although data from Police Scotland will tell us, encouragingly, how many referrals have been made to the NHS 24 mental health hub, and although we can track how many adult protection referrals and distress brief intervention referrals police make, we want to know the whole picture and the journey for the patient or the person in distress.

We will continue to discuss with Police Scotland the data that it has collected. My officials are engaged in those discussions. In particular, we want to understand more about the methodology. Although it is very important that we understand the quantum and that X number of police hours are being redirected to other activity, that will not be the only measure of success. Part of the whole-systems approach is about getting folk the treatment and support that they need, which will in turn reduce demand on policing.

In short, I am saying that there is further work to be done across the agencies on data that can provide a bigger, whole-systems picture.