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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 2 April 2025
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Displaying 302 contributions

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Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 21 January 2025

Roz McCall

Hello again, everyone. I will come first to Mr Hedges with my first question about Henry VIII powers. Your committee’s submission made reference—which I am sure that you remember—to a suggestion to strengthen scrutiny on that,

“to require the Minister making them to consult with relevant stakeholders before making, or laying a draft of, a statutory instrument.”

That highlights to me the possibility that there could be other forms of scrutiny and that there should be a better way of scrutinising that Henry VIII power. What might be a required or appropriate scrutiny method for that form of legislation?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 21 January 2025

Roz McCall

Mr Carson, in your submission, you refer to some bills in relation to Henry VIII powers, but not many. Do you have anything to add?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 21 January 2025

Roz McCall

That is very helpful. Thank you.

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 14 January 2025

Roz McCall

Is that purely because the key outcomes were not as defined as they should have been, or were they there but, as the co-design went through, it became more obvious that the outcomes were not achievable? I am sorry to be daft about that.

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 14 January 2025

Roz McCall

Good morning, everyone. You have already touched on the topics that I am looking to speak about, especially co-design.

I come back to something that Lloyd Austin mentioned—the idea of having a weak framework to start with and then secondary legislation coming in. One of my biggest concerns about this issue has always been, again, the financials. A financial memorandum is attached to a bill, but if there is no detail coming through, you have no idea, and we always end up with legislation that does not have the financial clout on which to follow through in secondary legislation.

Is that a legitimate concern if we do not get the framework side of things right in primary legislation, right up front? What are the consequences of weak bills and co-design, where everything seems come in secondary legislation?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 14 January 2025

Roz McCall

Thank you. My apologies to Jonnie Hall, but I think that other witnesses have answered on where they think this is a good idea. I do not want to encroach on that.

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 14 January 2025

Roz McCall

Thank you. That was very helpful.

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 14 January 2025

Roz McCall

It goes back to the case-by-case basis that was mentioned earlier. I will have to wind up so I return to Rosemary Agnew. In an earlier answer, you spoke about the co-design core principles. Will you give me an idea of when a framework bill is the wrong approach? As Adam Stachura has just said, for the national care service, is a framework the wrong approach? Please give us your insight on that, as well. I am throwing it all at you now, unfortunately, Rosemary, but I have a limited timeframe.

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 14 January 2025

Roz McCall

I want to narrow things down a little bit. The information that you are giving is very interesting, but I want to delve into NFU Scotland’s criteria, which the convener started to look at. After all, we are looking at this from a scrutiny and accountability point of view when it comes to secondary legislation.

In your opinion, if we are looking at this through a scrutiny and accountability lens, should there be additional safeguards and controls to ensure appropriate use of framework legislation, given the secondary legislation that will follow? I will start with you, Mr Clancy, because I think that that follows on very nicely from your last answer.

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 14 January 2025

Roz McCall

To follow on from the other answers, if Henry VIII powers are appropriate at the right time, how can we improve that scrutiny and accountability? That is the angle that we are looking at when it comes to subordinate legislation.