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Seòmar agus comataidhean

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 3 April 2025
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Displaying 1450 contributions

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Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

Another interesting issue came up in evidence last week. You talked about the action plan for Gypsy and Traveller communities. On the issue of racism, there was an expectation that health boards would put together and draw up anti-racism action plans. Is it your intention that all public bodies with responsibilities under the PSED should have an anti-racist action plan? If so, do you see that just being done in a phased way rather than requiring everybody to do it all at once? Can we speed things up a little bit?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

It is helpful to draw out those broader examples that might not sit within PSED reporting. Perhaps that is also something for us to think about—how we talk about the fostering good relations element of PSED.

There are some challenges, and we heard from the EHRC this morning that the police, for instance, have a key role in supporting the fostering of good relations in different ways. Do those issues form part of your conversations with agencies such as the police? What is the Scottish Government’s role in furthering this need—the requirement to foster good relations—especially with an organisation such as the police that has been identified as being institutionally racist? How can we expect different communities to trust that type of organisation to foster good relations? How do we unpick that knotty issue? I realise that that is a small question with big consequences and implications.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

Others want to come in on the subject, too, so I will leave it there.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

If there are particular groups that are having difficulties realising their equalities rights and human rights, is PSED the right tool to ensure that we, as the public sector generally, take those responsibilities and duties seriously, instead of saying, “Yeah, it’s difficult, so we’re just not going to bother.”? That is not done out of malice, but we quite often hear from people with lived experience of discrimination and from organisations that support different communities that some public authorities think, “It’s too hard, so we’re just not going to touch it.”

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

Do you hear questions being asked about that? Are the Scottish Government or other public agencies starting to think about it as we move towards reforming the PSED? Are people more alive to it and trying to get to grips with what it means? You are right that there is nervousness or reticence because they do not know what the duty is, what it looks like or what it means practically in day-to-day operations. Are those conversations happening in relation to reform?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

That is really helpful, but quite a lot of questions arise from your comments, Bill. From what you have said, the inference might be that fostering good relations is something that happens, maybe not on a widespread basis but in a much more integrated way, south of the border. I am not sure that I see evidence of that. I am interested in your perspective, given that across the EHRC, you will share information, knowledge and practice around that. In England, is better attention paid to fostering good relations, given that there is a relationship that directly feeds into the human rights sphere there?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 11 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

Okay. Thanks, Lindsey. Jill Wood, I ask you the same question about fostering good relations.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 11 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

You talked about the lack of connection to the whole purpose of the duty, which is to drive change, and you mentioned resourcing and competence. Do you think that those are the two issues that are working together to create that disconnect, or are there other things going on as well?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 11 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

Thank you. Those specific suggestions on new duties are really helpful.

Lindsey Millen talked earlier about significant failures even to meet basic duties across different groups. Clearly, Close the Gap’s view is that something is missing, and that the public sector equality duty is not delivering outcomes. Is it your view, too, that the PSED cannot deliver the outcomes? Is it only an implementation issue, or is it bigger than that?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 11 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

Pauline, do you want to come in?