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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 13 April 2025
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Displaying 1466 contributions

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Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 4 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

that is really helpful, Nareen—thank you.

Alyia, I saw you nodding as Nareen Turnbull was speaking. Do you want to come in on this point, too?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 4 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

You have spoken about dealing with the disconnect. In your experience, if there is good work happening in your local authority, and if there are different projects that are tackling inequalities, what are the barriers to using the duty as a tool to address inequality and actually change things for people, so that it is not just about the process or collecting the data, but is about making individuals’ lives and communities’ lives better?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 4 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

Thanks, Alyia.

Martin, I come to you with the same initial question. If we are using the PSED, which is a measure that is supposed to help us target resources and work, why are inequalities still widening?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 4 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

It does. Thanks, all—that is helpful. We are keen to use these evidence sessions to give the Scottish Government some pointers as to how its reforms can be more effective. I will leave it there for now.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 4 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

Thanks for that. You mention the need for skills and expertise and the need for data analysts who can identify data and provide support to organisations. However, one can be good at data analysis without necessarily knowing how to translate that into policy or action. Will the proposed reforms support you with that, or is there still something missing in the Scottish Government’s look ahead for the PSED?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 4 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

—particularly in relation to some of the other rights that you talked about, such as marches and the right to protest. Some communities clearly feel over-policed, but that is perhaps for another day.

Jillian, given your scrutiny role across the public sector, where are the good points when it comes to fostering good relations, and where do we fall short?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 4 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

I want to tease that out a little bit more. I am familiar with the turnaround from using the term “hard to reach” to using the term “seldom heard”. The framing that I like is “easy to ignore”, because that makes it very clear whose responsibility it is to engage. However, even those terms can fail—that might be because of one incident or maybe decades of incidents of discrimination and prejudice by the police—because communities or individuals in communities do not want to engage with the police and might even feel threatened and intimidated by them. How do you foster good relations in those situations?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 4 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

We could probably go on with this conversation—

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 4 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

Thank you, convener, and good morning, everyone. Thank you for joining us and for your comments so far.

You have all said in different ways that you think that you and your colleagues have a good understanding of what is required of you under the public sector equality duty. One of the reasons why we are undertaking this piece of work is that, in the absence of the Scottish Government’s human rights bill and the opportunity to talk about rights realisation through that, it has become very clear that there is a need to ensure that local authorities and public bodies are attuned to their duties under the Equality Act 2010 and, in particular, to the PSED, especially given that inequalities are rising in certain sectors between certain groups and also within certain protected characteristics.

To what extent do you think that the PSED, as it stands, is delivering for the people of Scotland, bearing in mind that there are still many significant inequalities issues across the different protected characteristic groups, between them and in communities as a whole?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 4 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

Thank you—that is useful. It is great that we have this range of witnesses today, because that is exactly the kind of variation that we must understand. One size will not fit all across Scotland, and we must ensure that we understand what will and will not work in different places.