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Minister, I absolutely agree—

My final question, which ties in with that, is about waste charging for bulky uplifts and whether that potentially disincentivises good behaviours. We often hear that some local authorities charge too much for a bulky uplift, which may send people down the road of using somebody else who might fly-tip elsewhere. Would you like to see more consistency between local authorities in bulky uplift charges?

Earlier, I asked questions about the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities. I should have declared that, at the start of this parliamentary session, I was a councillor at Aberdeen City Council.

The committee heard evidence from the waste industry about sofas that contain POPs, or persistent organic pollutants, being banned from going to landfill. So many recycling centres across Scotland are no longer going to accept them. Are you concerned that that will feed into more fly-tipping—that people who go to a recycling centre with a sofa and are told that the site will not accept it might decide to dump it elsewhere instead, perhaps on the drive home?

I will come in on that point. If we deal with only larger businesses, is there the unintended consequence that some of them will move their distribution centres south of the border, where the same legislation to prevent them from disposing of unsold goods is not in place?

I am not saying—

In its letter, COSLA talks about co-production and the Verity house agreement and says that the threat of penalties is not in tune with that agreement. Do you not agree with it that the threat of penalties is not the way of building relationships and having a joint way of working?

During our evidence sessions, we heard from Orkney Council, which has quite a low recycling rate just now—I think that it is about 22 per cent, or around about that. However, it said that the amount of waste going to landfill was not high, because it has energy from waste, for example. It feels that, if it was to push that higher, it would mean more cost for it and probably be worse for the environment, as it would have to start shipping goods off to be recycled on the mainland, to Aberdeen or wherever.

What would you say to Orkney Council? Does it simply have to reach that higher target, even if it is worse for the environment?

From some of the evidence that we have heard, it seems that it is actually quite easy to get a waste carrier or waste handler licence. Is there scope to tighten up that provision to try to reduce the amount of rogue people—let us say—who collect rubbish and then fly-tip it elsewhere?

So, the target for places such as Orkney and Shetland could be lower.