Seòmar agus comataidhean

I suppose that part of the issue is the need to think about the unintended consequences. If we are not setting clear parameters for what we hope to achieve—there is a broad range of things that we need to achieve—and we are not measuring our achievements, other than the input targets, that is a problem.

I was interested in the evidence, both written and verbal, that we received from the Scottish Childminding Association, which described the devastation of the childminder service: 1,400 businesses have gone and 8,000 places have gone. That is reflected in the experience of some of my constituents, who have told me that they recognise that that policy is in place but that they still cannot access the wraparound childcare that would allow them to go to work. The flexibility is not available through local authority services or other forms of childcare. Childminders would normally be part of that.

Graeme McAlister, do you see the collapse in the childminder sector as a direct consequence of the implementation of the policy? Is that what you were alluding to earlier?

Yes. Proceed, and we will see how we go.

No, I am afraid we cannot hear him.

I appreciate that. I also recognise that that might be challenging in and of itself. My question was not about whether it would be helpful—

I will keep this reasonably brief. In their observations on the work that has been done under the policy in the past couple of years, most people have touched on the issue that I will raise. I have heard reports—actually, it goes beyond reports—of nursery closures in my constituency. I am being told that that is because of a change in behaviour by parents, who are perhaps accessing childcare in different ways and making different decisions because their working patterns have changed.

I know that work was undertaken more than a year ago on the sector’s financial health. Does that work need to be refreshed? Do you have concerns about the sector’s health across Scotland? I want to be reasonably specific that I am talking about coming out of the other side of the pandemic, because we have explored in depth the issues that relate to the unexpected consequences and other effects of the policy. What is the sector’s general health?

You will not find any disagreement from me on that point about underfunding and the issues around the funding of local government services.

It strikes me that it would not be too difficult to design a research programme that followed the investment, whether that was a longitudinal study or case studies, including an understanding of labour market dynamics. All of that information is available. Do you see that as being COSLA’s job, given that we have just been told by the Improvement Service that it is not its job? Is it COSLA’s job to evaluate the programme outcomes?

Let us hope that it does so. The report in The Times that Mr Dey referred to is horrifying.

Senior policy figures in Scotland have said to me that cross-border placements are essentially allowing institutions in Scotland to keep the lights on and that funding is attached to those young people. I recognise that they are individual children and that it is not about monetisation, but we are talking about how we ensure that those facilities are well inspected and well run. Is that the case?

I am afraid that we have had those representations from across the sector, including secondary schools, primary schools and the tertiary sector. I do not think that we are going to agree on what is happening here. The Scottish Government is taking money away from the poorest communities, and the poorest kids are paying the cost of providing for other kids in poverty across Scotland. Those kids require funding, but I cannot agree, as the cabinet secretary clearly does, that that has to come at the expense of the kids in the poorest communities in this country.

I thank the cabinet secretary for her evidence so far. On 23 May 2018, the Deputy First Minister told the Education and Skills Committee that the utilisation of PEF to replace an existing service was unacceptable and would be a breach of the condition of grant. Does that remain Scottish Government policy?

Okay. Does the cabinet secretary agree that, when services are withdrawn due to pressure on local authority budgets and schools maintain those services through PEF, that constitutes substitution for cuts and is not allowed?