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To be fair, there were processes in place before that, and there was—

On the resource spending review, the previous Cabinet Secretary for Finance and the Economy said that she wanted a return to pre-Covid levels in the public sector head count and in the size of the civil service. What is the status of that work and the policy commitment to reduce head count?

There was advice in relation to the case surrounding the former First Minister, Alex Salmond, which was discounted by the Scottish Government. The advice was to concede the case as the benefits from proceeding did not appear to come close to meeting the potential detriments from doing so.

At some point, the Cabinet made a decision to disregard that legal advice. I am concerned about that and I want to understand how you would have that conversation in the Cabinet and come to a decision to set aside that advice and do something else.

You seem reluctant to say that that is your expectation of Cabinet colleagues.

Excellent. I am glad to hear it.

Good morning, and welcome to the 13th meeting in 2023 of the Finance and Public Administration Committee. We have received apologies from the convener, so I will convene the meeting in his place.

We are joined by Keith Brown, who is attending the meeting as a substitute member in the convener’s absence. I am pleased to welcome Keith to the meeting, and I invite him to declare any relevant interests.

Thank you.

Under the next agenda item, we will continue our inquiry into effective Scottish Government decision making. We are joined remotely by Sophie Howe, sustainability futures and wellbeing adviser and former Future Generations Commissioner for Wales; Professor Steve Martin, director of the Wales Centre for Public Policy at Cardiff University; and Professor Matthew Flinders, University of Sheffield. I welcome you all to the meeting, and thank you for giving us your time.

I intend to allow up to 90 minutes for this session. If any of the witnesses wants to come in on a question, I would be grateful if they could post in the chat function so that I know to bring them in. I also ask my committee colleagues to name the first witness to whom they are putting their question.

Liz Smith will kick off the questions.

Two of the witnesses are in Wales. I will bring in Steve Martin.

A Conservative minister was quoted in 2020 as saying that Whitehall had been “infantilised” by the use of consultancy companies. Reflecting on Professor Flinders’s point about where they are positioned in the policy-making chain, I thought that that was a highly critical comment.

I will bring in Professor Martin, as he is on the screen.