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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 22 April 2025
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Displaying 1472 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Proposed National Outcomes

Meeting date: 8 October 2024

Michael Marra

I will be even narrower. Does the framework actually work? Last October, in reaction to the Rutherglen by-election, a council tax freeze was announced within days. We have had three years in a row of emergency budgets, with major adjustments to public spending. A plethora of reports that have come in front of the committee say that the Government does not take long-term decisions, particularly on the public finances and public service reform. Are the objectives that are set in the framework the right ones when it comes to governing those key issues? Do they help us with the core issues of making long-term decisions? That does not appear to be the case.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Proposed National Outcomes

Meeting date: 8 October 2024

Michael Marra

Good afternoon, Deputy First Minister. The evidence that the committee has received so far indicates that many stakeholders see the national performance framework as a way of trying to break the short-term cycle of politics in order to gain a longer-term view. Does it help in that regard?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Proposed National Outcomes

Meeting date: 8 October 2024

Michael Marra

I do not think that you will find any disagreement from the committee on that point. However, I have already cited a range of external observers who say that what you describe is exactly what is not happening with this Government, given its handling of public finances.

You had a go at this when you were Cabinet Secretary for Finance and the Economy, in your resource spending review: you tried to take some decisions for the longer term and to talk about a strategy. However, Shona Robison later came to the committee and said that she was ditching that policy because it was “a blunt tool”. Is that not what happens to long-term thinking under this Government?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Proposed National Outcomes

Meeting date: 8 October 2024

Michael Marra

So it was not “a blunt tool”.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 8 October 2024

Michael Marra

On 30 May, you published the Scottish Government’s pay policy, which indicated an assumption of 3 per cent for pay awards. Was that the figure that you used in establishing the 2024-25 budget?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 8 October 2024

Michael Marra

It is good that you reflect on the comments from the SFC and the Fraser of Allander Institute—

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 8 October 2024

Michael Marra

Three per cent was not very realistic, was it?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 8 October 2024

Michael Marra

On that point, the Fraser of Allander Institute has suggested that you should set out your assumptions and your intent, then present scenario plans. For instance, you have revealed today that, for 2024-25, you set out a 3 per cent assumption. However, you would set out assumptions in scenario plans with regard to where you would take the money from in the rest of your budget, were that to rise to 4 per cent or 5 per cent. That would allow Parliament to scrutinise the budget. Frankly, in your negotiations, it would make it possible to understand the consequences of some of your decisions. That is not my suggestion; it is the Fraser of Allander Institute saying that that would be a different way to approach Scottish budgeting prudently. We have to accept that, at the moment, the budget is not in a very good state, so we want a better process.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 8 October 2024

Michael Marra

Perhaps not.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Proposed National Outcomes

Meeting date: 8 October 2024

Michael Marra

I have one final question, on a slightly different area. It is on the point about the difference between the sustainable development goals and the national performance framework as a tool to drive performance. The framework, conceptually, is the basis on which we set outcomes and try to measure performance against them, whereas the sustainable development goals are “calls to action”, as they have been described; they essentially have funding pots set against them and positive actions that can be about aligning activity.

In contrast, what you are doing with the framework, in essence, is setting out an organising principle for the civil service, as you described it. I find that the confusion between those two operating models, in terms of the bureaucracy, might actually be part of the problem rather than the solution, because those two things—the sustainable development goals and the national performance framework—are not the same.