Seòmar agus comataidhean

First, I want to ask a supplementary question on the back of Pam Duncan-Glancy’s questions about single-sex spaces.

Cabinet secretary, you have made it clear that single-sex spaces are not affected by the bill. Do you think that the Government or you in particular could have done something different to help people who oppose the bill to better understand what it does and does not do? Have any lessons been learned? There are a lot of concerns out there—people stop me in the streets in my constituency to talk about their concerns. Have you learned lessons that will be helpful if we are not going to suspend the bill at stage 1 and are instead going to press ahead with the passage of the legislation?

My next question is about the situation in other countries. In previous meetings, a concern was raised about the issue of data collection on the basis of gender as opposed to sex and the potential impact that that could have on issues such as the gender pay gap. I asked Senator Doherty whether Ireland’s introduction of the self-identification policy had resulted in anything that might be concerning. She said that that issue was missed at the time and not brought to light but that she felt that it was something that she had to look at now, because there is a gap there. What are your thoughts about the gender pay gap and data collection?

Could you help me and the people who are watching this session understand this a little bit better? In a previous evidence session, there was a conversation about a situation in which—I have to get the terminology right—a person who is a trans person now but who was born as a male was on a higher salary than their women colleagues. How would you balance that out? Obviously, at a certain time in their life, that person could have been being paid as a male—as we know, there is a big gender pay gap between females and males. If colleagues working with a trans woman are on less pay, how do we work that out?

Lastly, we heard in private from an organisation that said that this change would drive women, especially from ethnic minority groups, more underground, because they would not go into many single-sex spaces such as changing rooms. Do you believe that if those women cannot have that single-sex space to themselves they will be driven more underground? I welcome the fact that you have said that employers will hopefully have in their employment contracts and guidance that, with regard to a trans person, they will be sensitive on religious grounds, if someone, say, wanted to see a doctor.

I have just two more questions, on single-sex spaces and on religion.

The committee has heard concerns—obviously, you have heard them as well—that the system of self-declaration will open up the bill to abuse by bad-faith actors who could invade women’s single-sex spaces. What is your response to those concerns and will you be considering provisions such as blocking people convicted of sex crimes from obtaining a GRC through self-declaration? If not, can you tell the committee what the bill does to address the concerns about the safety of women and girls in relation to bad-faith actors who may exploit the bill?

Good afternoon, Senator Doherty. The committee has covered quite a lot already. I will try to discuss an area that has not been covered, and I will go back to some areas to seek more clarity.

My colleague Rachael Hamilton spoke about data collection in relation to health and justice. I want to talk a bit about data collection on the basis of gender as opposed to sex and the potential impact on equality measures such as the gender pay gap. Did the introduction of a self-identification policy result in similar concerns? Do you share any of those concerns? Are you aware of the policy in Ireland having an effect on any other data collection policies?

I know that you covered justice and health a little when my colleague asked about them. My question is more about the gender pay gap, because some of our witnesses have talked about that. I would like to hear a little about your concerns and your thoughts on how you tackled that area.

Thank you, Senator Doherty.

Thank you for that, Senator Doherty. You are absolutely correct that everybody—whether they are a trans person or they come from a religious background—has that right, but how can we impose such things upon people who follow certain religions? You probably heard my example that involved a woman going to a doctor. How does that work? You said that that situation has not come up in Ireland yet, but would you also consider that when you look at gender equality stuff? We will consider those things, and we have heard from witnesses with different views. We need to ensure that we have a fair playing field for everybody to access services and spaces.

We have talked a little about the example of people using changing spaces, so you are aware of that. I will watch my wording, but another example is that, if a woman of colour—perhaps someone who is Indian—or a Muslim woman goes to a doctor, asks for a smear test, for example, asks for a female doctor and the doctor is a trans female, the patient would not know, and it is not up to the trans person to tell the patient who they are, because that is their right, which is understandable. It would break the religion of that female if she later found out that the doctor was trans, but she would not have had the opportunity to know, because the trans person has the right to privacy. However, the person with the religious belief also has the right to know who they are being treated by.

It would be good if you could tell us how we can reach a happy medium in which we respect both sides and come out with a balanced view that can help services to be delivered.

Thank you for being so honest about that, Senator Doherty. In looking at our bill now, we have a good opportunity to look at those areas.

I want to go back to what my colleague Pam Duncan-Glancy spoke about in relation to the work that you did with groups around accessing services and single-sex spaces, and to touch on women of faith. You have probably been following our committee’s work. People have raised that issue with me personally, and it has also been brought up in the committee. How did you go about addressing that issue in your 2015 act? Did religious groups and women of faith raise that issue of accessing services and single-sex spaces? Did you come across that in any of the work that you did?