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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 4 April 2025
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Displaying 671 contributions

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Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 11 March 2025

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

I thank the witnesses for all the information that they have provided so far.

I asked this question of the witnesses on the first panel—those of you who were here will have heard me ask it—but I did not really get a response, so here’s hoping that I get some direction and a response from you.

The provision of single-sex spaces and services is vital for women, including BAME women and those from religious backgrounds. During consideration of the Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill, I highlighted that many religious women do not feel comfortable being touched by biological male doctors or nurses when, for example, smear tests or breast examinations are being performed.

As you know, the NHS employs many women from BAME backgrounds, and they will now be made to feel uncomfortable and scared to speak up, especially given what has happened to Sandie Peggie and how she has been treated. Changing in front of a biological male would mean that those women would break their religion—religion is, by the way, also a protected characteristic under the Equality Act 2010. Does that mean that all those women will have to go through a tribunal?

I do not understand why, on the one hand, the public are given separate prayer rooms but, on the other hand, single-sex facilities are taken away. That defeats the purpose of promoting equality. As you will know, before praying, women of faith need to use the facilities without the presence of a biological male. Should it be mandatory for all public bodies to offer single-sex spaces and services?

12:15  

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 4 March 2025

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

Good morning. I thank the witnesses for the information that they have supplied so far. Last week, the committee received a submission from Sandie Peggie’s lawyers. As you might know, Sandie Peggie is a nurse who was suspended from NHS Fife for refusing to use a changing room with a biologically male colleague. In the submission, Sandie Peggie’s lawyers wrote:

“Unfortunately, the PSED has zero prospects of delivering on its aims to improve outcomes for people with protected characteristics if listed authorities adopt the same cavalier approach to PSED compliance as FHB has.”

The submission clearly shows that the rights of trans-identifying males were put above the rights of women. No woman should ever be treated this way.

What are your local authorities doing to ensure that women and girls are not treated the same way as Sandie Peggie was treated? For example, are the rights of women and girls respected in council-run facilities such as single-sex toilets and changing rooms? Can you guarantee that you are complying with the Equality Act 2010? Do you believe that self-identification is trumping the Equality Act 2010 and is above women and girls’ rights?

I will go to Nareen Turnbull first.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 4 March 2025

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

It is one of the big issues that I am dealing with right now, in the West of Scotland region. Parents are complaining to me and saying that, especially in relation to the single-sex toilets in every school, there seem to be different sets of guidance and policies, even though the policies are set from Holyrood. The difficulty comes from how the schools interpret the policies and guidance and pass them on. Have you heard of that?

10:45  

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 4 March 2025

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

Thank you. Nicky, there is another area that you may not know about or that you may have read about in the media, which is how we can ensure that women are not strip-searched by men. I think that that has come up in England. Does Police Scotland have policies on that?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 4 March 2025

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

Thank you. That is all from me, convener.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 4 March 2025

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

Will that guidance be out this year?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 4 March 2025

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

Thank you, Andrew. It is great to hear that you are providing for everybody and that you are ahead of the curve.

You said that you have not come across any issues. I want to ask whether anyone has anything to say on this: we have found that a lot of girls do not go to shared toilets because they feel scared, and some do not go to the toilet all day until they go home. Will you share whether that or anything like that has come up in any of your schools?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 4 March 2025

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

Thank you for saying that, Nareen. I ran that question by our clerks before I asked you, because I do not want to break any rules.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 4 March 2025

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

Thank you, Martin. I look forward to the outcomes of the group.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 4 March 2025

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

Thank you, Alyia. It is really pleasing to hear that you are ahead of the curve and providing space for different people—not just single-sex spaces but gender-neutral spaces. That is really good.