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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 19 September 2025
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Displaying 774 contributions

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Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 16 January 2024

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

Good morning, panel. My question is about ring fencing. The director of finance at East Lothian Council told us how around three quarters of its budget had been wrapped up in directed spend, and it still had all of its policy commitments to deal with. Such an approach did not really provide any flexibility, despite some formerly ring-fenced budgets being baselined. To what extent is the budget un-ring-fenced, and what is COSLA’s role in that process?

Councillor Hagmann, you mentioned the policy commitments, so I will start with you.

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 16 January 2024

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

Thanks, Mirren. Do you have anything to add, David?

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 16 January 2024

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

I am fully aware of that letter. All the authorities that I spoke to mentioned it, and it is good that progress is being made and that you are looking at the issue differently. However, I want to probe that further. The question that I asked was whether local authorities should retain teacher numbers. Of course, teachers are very helpful, and I absolutely agree that no Opposition party would come back to you on that. However, my question was about declining enrolment. What formula do you use if pressure is put on local authorities to retain teacher numbers but enrolment is declining? I have heard from many local authorities on that—I spoke to a lot of chief executive officers, and they said that they still have that pressure.

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 16 January 2024

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

Thank you, minister. I look forward to that progressive work.

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 9 January 2024

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

Good morning and happy new year, everyone.

I have been speaking to councils right across Scotland, including all four of your councils. The general sentiment about the Verity house agreement is that it is definitely needed. All the councils welcome the agreement, but not one of them believes that it has been working. One council said that it could not think of a single initiative to which the principles of the Verity house agreement had been applied. Can any of you give an example of where the Verity house agreement has been applied and, if so, explain how that might be replicated in future practices?

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 9 January 2024

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

When we spoke to local authorities, it was highlighted that they face penalties if they attempt to make savings on teacher numbers even if there are declining school rolls. What impact do such requirements have on the physical flexibility in local authorities?

On the flipside, the challenges in East Lothian are different from those in Argyll and Bute. There are more challenges in East Lothian due to the growth that is taking place there. What does the ring fencing of funds in certain areas mean for local authorities and their flexibility? How does that allow you to innovate rather than look just at teacher numbers? My question is about both sides: decline and growth.

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 9 January 2024

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

Thank you.

10:00  

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 9 January 2024

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

Jamie Robertson, East Dunbartonshire is an area of growth.

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

New Deal with Local Government

Meeting date: 19 December 2023

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

Earlier, we were speaking about ring fencing. We have heard from more than half of the local authorities, which have spoken about issues around ring fencing time and again. The Verity house agreement envisages a fiscal framework with a presumption against ring fencing. Is it likely that that approach can be delivered, particularly when ring fencing continues to be emphasised in relation to areas such as teacher numbers—an area that most of the local authorities chose to highlight? Obviously, they welcome the removal of ring fencing so that they can make decisions locally. However, they are talking about teacher numbers and other areas where ring fencing might not be removed. What is your view on ring fencing in that regard?

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

New Deal with Local Government

Meeting date: 19 December 2023

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

Before I ask the same question of Professor Hall and Professor Gallagher, do you believe that completely removing ring fencing would open up more doors? I am hearing from you that innovation plays a role in how services can be delivered more efficiently and effectively, and, probably, more in line with today’s technology.