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Good morning, panel. My question is about ring fencing. The director of finance at East Lothian Council told us how around three quarters of its budget had been wrapped up in directed spend, and it still had all of its policy commitments to deal with. Such an approach did not really provide any flexibility, despite some formerly ring-fenced budgets being baselined. To what extent is the budget un-ring-fenced, and what is COSLA’s role in that process?

Councillor Hagmann, you mentioned the policy commitments, so I will start with you.

Thanks, Mirren. Do you have anything to add, David?

Thank you, minister. I look forward to that progressive work.

I am fully aware of that letter. All the authorities that I spoke to mentioned it, and it is good that progress is being made and that you are looking at the issue differently. However, I want to probe that further. The question that I asked was whether local authorities should retain teacher numbers. Of course, teachers are very helpful, and I absolutely agree that no Opposition party would come back to you on that. However, my question was about declining enrolment. What formula do you use if pressure is put on local authorities to retain teacher numbers but enrolment is declining? I have heard from many local authorities on that—I spoke to a lot of chief executive officers, and they said that they still have that pressure.

Thank you, minister. I will probe that further. Let us put the Fraser of Allander Institute estimate to the side. The committee has heard from councils and COSLA, and I have heard from them personally—as I said, I have been speaking to CEOs. They are under pressure. Whether 5 per cent is good enough or whether the figure should be 10 per cent, they are going through really challenging times. What examples can you give of the sort of savings that councils could make? We know that certain areas, such as education and social care, are ring fenced, but what areas do you think that councils need to start looking at? There is a massive budget gap and they are experiencing challenges.

I will go back to something that Katie Hagmann was saying about the fiscal framework. The Verity house agreement stated that a fiscal framework would be concluded by the end of September 2023. Obviously, that has not happened. Four weeks ago, the Deputy First Minister said:

“Already many of the principles we have agreed together are being put into practice, such as improved engagement ahead of the publication of the Scottish Budget”.

Would you agree with that assessment, given that COSLA was blindsided by the decision to freeze the council tax? When can we expect the framework to be completed?

Councillor Hagmann, you said that you had a positive meeting with the Scottish Government after the announcement of the council tax freeze. Having spoken to 24 local authorities, I know how they are feeling. Since that meeting, do they feel that they have much more certainty with regard to the Verity house agreement and the work on the fiscal framework?

Good morning, minister. My question follows on from Mark Griffin’s. Councils are providing more new and improved services—including free school lunches, early childhood education and services relating to social care obligations—that have outpaced the funding that is supplied by the Scottish Government. My question is on teacher numbers. Does local government have to retain teacher numbers, even where enrolment is declining?

It is very promising to hear from you today that you are moving away from input measures and towards outcomes. I have spoken to about 24 authorities, and they have welcomed that language on outcomes, especially with teacher numbers. However, where enrolment is declining, authorities must still deliver the teacher numbers that the Scottish Government has proposed. Local authorities feel that, although teacher numbers are important, innovation and teaching in different ways are also important. Many things surround teaching; it is not just about teacher numbers. What is your view on that?

Thank you.

Jamie Robertson, East Dunbartonshire is an area of growth.