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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 19 April 2025
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Displaying 986 contributions

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Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 15 November 2022

Paul O'Kane

Thanks for those responses.

Roz Foyer, you spoke about a democratic deficit in the current system, given how it is set up. Are you concerned that the transfer of decision-making power up to national level will increase the democratic deficit? Should IJBs or care boards be democratised by the inclusion of voting reps from the trade union side, or who are carers or patients with lived experience?

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 15 November 2022

Paul O'Kane

In the initial questions, we started to touch on many of the issues about the transfer of staff, and the concerns that trade unions have about the number—75,000—and the potential knock-on effects. I will therefore focus on your involvement and understanding of that process—in particular, on TUPE. When were trade unions consulted by the Government on the idea that the bill might involve such a transfer of staff, and that it might involve a TUPE process?

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 15 November 2022

Paul O'Kane

Okay.

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 15 November 2022

Paul O'Kane

Thanks for those responses.

The policy memorandum speaks about workforce, employment and contractual arrangements being the subject of secondary legislation, which includes the potential transfer of staff from local authorities. Would it be fair to say that at no point did the Government approach you and say that there is the potential in the bill for 75,000 staff to transfer, and that that might involve a TUPE process?

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 15 November 2022

Paul O'Kane

Thanks for those responses. Alison, in your answer to the convener’s initial question, you spoke about there being a level of ambivalence towards the bill and about people’s concerns about leaving things to secondary legislation and the changes that will impact on existing legislation, particularly in the social work space. Are you concerned that leaving things to secondary legislation narrows the scrutiny in terms of what is debated in the Parliament, with everyone having their say—are you nervous about that?

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 15 November 2022

Paul O'Kane

In the process leading up to the bill’s introduction and in our scrutiny thus far, there has been a lot of discussion about the importance of parity of esteem between the NHS and social care. Is there sufficient clarity about what that might look like? The question is perhaps for Alison Bavidge and Colin Poolman, but Sharon Wiener-Ogilvie might want to contribute, as well—I am sure that all the panellists will be keen to answer.

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 15 November 2022

Paul O'Kane

We have heard a lot of evidence on this area and on the known unknowns, if you like, around it in the bill. What is your view on the Scottish Government’s approach in the bill on giving Scottish ministers powers to transfer functions? First, what does that mean for staff morale? Secondly, what are the main concerns of staff?

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 15 November 2022

Paul O'Kane

Would it have been better to give people certainty in the bill, or not do it all, as the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities thinks?

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 15 November 2022

Paul O'Kane

Kay McVeigh comes from a personnel and development background. What is your sense of what the bill needs to do? We have just had a conversation about what is not in the bill. Regardless of that process, what key actions are needed to drive that parity, particularly from a local authority point of view?

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 15 November 2022

Paul O'Kane

I have a brief follow-up question. Much discussion of costs has taken place in recent weeks, in this committee and other committees that are scrutinising the proposed legislation. Are you concerned about the cost of transferring the staff in setting up new services? Is that a worry for local authorities?