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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 26 April 2025
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Displaying 923 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 November 2022

Katy Clark

I have another question for Lynsey Smith. In your contribution, you said that your view was that the status quo could not continue. Our understanding of how the national care service will work is that, unlike the national health service, it will not actually provide a service or employ any staff. A lot of us who campaigned for a national care service were campaigning for a body that would provide a service, which would employ staff directly and provide a high quality of service. Our understanding of how the national care service will work is that it will commission services and, effectively, put out tenders.

I will ask COSLA about this in a minute, but I have been told by people in local government that it is unlikely that many councils will participate in the process, because of their own financial situations. When you say that the status quo cannot continue, what are your reasons for saying that? Is the top reason the funding?

Criminal Justice Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 November 2022

Katy Clark

But is that the top problem at the moment—a lack of funding or resource?

Criminal Justice Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 November 2022

Katy Clark

It has come through clearly from all the witnesses that you feel that there is a lack of detail in the proposals. Obviously, the bill is an enabling piece of legislation, so there is not a huge amount of detail in it in general, but it gives ministers significant powers to create a new way of providing a service. It has been said that the inclusion of the sectors that we are discussing is overreach, given that they were not included in the Feeley report. Do you agree with that assessment?

Criminal Justice Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 November 2022

Katy Clark

Reflecting on the comments made by other witnesses, what does Unison feel are the major problems in this sector at the moment?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 23 November 2022

Katy Clark

I have a brief question on the capital budgets and the modernisation of the prison service. We have heard some evidence that, to put it crudely, newer prisons are cheaper than older prisons. Have you considered that? Is there a business case for capital investment in that it will help budgets in the future?

Criminal Justice Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 November 2022

Katy Clark

I appreciate that you are speaking for COSLA and that, because we do not have any detail, it is very difficult for you to respond. If the model was a commissioning model and if responsibility was taken away from local government, such that local authorities would have to enter into a tendering exercise, could there be a risk that local government, or at least some councils, might not get involved in that?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 9 November 2022

Katy Clark

You picked out HMP Greenock in particular and you described the conditions there as shocking. In your report last year, you said that it was in urgent need of replacement and was clearly

“ill-suited to a modern prison system.”

However, also last year, the cabinet secretary said that it was unlikely that the Scottish Prison Service would be able to commence such a replacement before 2025-26.

Our calculation is that the cuts that we are considering for the justice sector will be in the region of 20 per cent over the coming years. If the forecast was 2025-26 last year, that suggests that it could be some time before there will be any serious proposals on Greenock prison’s replacement. Is that a massive concern? What will be the implications of a lack of substantial investment, given the current condition of that prison?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 9 November 2022

Katy Clark

That is helpful information.

You have said clearly that you believe that there is a need for radical reform of justice. Politicians have been arguing for that since the creation of the Scottish Parliament and before it. They have said that there is no need for a full women’s prison in Scotland, that that is not the right way to dispose of woman prisoners and that prison is also not the right way to deal with the offending behaviour of many male prisoners. Those debates have been going on for many years. Why has the radical justice reform that you have spoken about not happened? Why has it been impossible to drive change in the system? What are your thoughts on that?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 9 November 2022

Katy Clark

Some of what I was going to ask about has already been covered.

Is it fair to say that the main reasons for Kilmarnock prison’s being cheaper to run are the staff terms and conditions and the staffing levels there? You said that the pay might be comparable but that some of the other terms and conditions might be less beneficial for staff at Kilmarnock than for those in the mainstream prison estate. My understanding of the staffing levels at Kilmarnock, based on what I have heard, has always been that they are poor, particularly at night. Therefore, the reason for its being cheaper to run is that it employs fewer staff in addition to those staff having poorer terms and conditions. Are those the main reasons? I ask because you obviously have a level of knowledge about the place, given your previous role there.

I have a further question about Kilmarnock prison, but perhaps you could respond to that first.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 9 November 2022

Katy Clark

It has closed-circuit television and so on.