Seòmar agus comataidhean

I think that you are saying that the nature of the court disposal means that it is not possible for the Scottish Government to transfer those children from Polmont into secure care, which is why the bill is required. That is really helpful. It has clarified things for me.

I have a couple more questions. I appreciate that the cabinet secretary wishes the widest range of disposals to be available. I fully support what the Government is trying to do here. Yesterday, I was at the Scottish Trades Union Congress in Dundee, where there was a debate about the cuts to justice social work and the cuts in relation to children’s services more widely. The cabinet secretary has spoken about the need for resources, and we know that secure care is very expensive. To what extent are alternatives available that might be less expensive but still involve some of the rehabilitation and support that both the cabinet secretary and the minister have referred to?

Earlier this morning, we spoke to two young women who experienced prison and secure care settings when they were 16 and 17 years old. Although we do not know everything about those individuals, one of them in particular definitely should not have been in prison. She was a care leaver; she had basically been thrown out of care when she was 16, which we know has happened to many young people.

To what extent is the justice system being asked to step in due to failures in relation to responsibilities that are not those of the Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs, such as the failure, collectively, to properly fund youth services and social work and to provide the support that the state should be providing to young people in care when they are over the age of 16 and are leaving care? I do not know whether the minister is better placed to answer that.

I appreciate the points that you make, but we know that there have been real-terms cuts in community justice. It costs roughly £40,000 a year to keep a person in prison—it depends on which prison they are in, but that is the broad-brush figure that we have been given. We were also told that it costs four times more to keep someone in secure care. I therefore wonder why we have not seen more significant shifts in budgets to put money into social work and community justice.

I appreciate that both the cabinet secretary and the minister have just taken up their posts, so I am not holding them personally responsible, but there seems to be a disconnect between policy and where we are putting our money.

I have not worked as a solicitor for many years—

Okay. On the resources issue, there has been a great deal of media speculation around the sentencing guidelines for under-25s, particularly in relation to very serious offences. Will you outline the non-custodial disposals that are available? I do not mean community service, because that does not necessarily have a rehabilitation element as such. Rather, will you outline what is available to the courts that adequately focuses on supporting and trying to rehabilitate individuals who have committed very serious offences?

I am in no way doubting the cabinet secretary’s personal commitment, but does she accept that there just has not been the structural shift that we need with resources being moved towards rehabilitation?

I want to pick up on quite a few of the points that Jamie Greene has raised and get a better understanding of why we now have 16 and 17-year-olds in the prison estate. I appreciate that you have said that it is down to the courts. To what extent are there children on remand in secure units now?

So they tend to be convicted children, or those referred by the children’s panel.

Much of the debate is about resources, including how we should shift them. We have been given figures on the cost of keeping someone in prison, which we are often told is around £40,000 per year. However, there is huge variation among prisons, and the newer prisons are a lot cheaper than the older ones. Do we have data on the average cost of keeping a child in a secure unit? I am just trying to get a feel for the resource issues.

That is helpful. Gerald, would you like to add to that?

Do you envisage that, in future, children in that position, who have risks associated with them because of the nature of the offence, are likely to be taken to secure units for short periods of time? Is that your understanding of the policy going forward? Is that what is being suggested, as far as you understand it?