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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 21 April 2025
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Displaying 912 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

Katy Clark

The information that we asked for is quite basic, though. We are asking only for numbers, but I have heard what the cabinet secretary has said.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

Katy Clark

I understand that, and that there are different criteria for taking cases forward in England and Wales. In Scotland, the decision is based on whether there is a sufficiency of evidence. The view is that conviction rates for rape in Scotland are too low, compared with other crimes; notwithstanding what the Scottish Solicitors Bar Association said yesterday in relation to, for example, murder cases, rape conviction levels are an outlier compared with other offences.

You have said very clearly that you are abolishing the not proven verdict not just to increase conviction levels, and in changing jury size, you are trying to fix the system so that it does not have any impact on conviction levels. Surely, though, we should be looking for a system in which there is a higher conviction rate in rape cases, given that there is sufficient evidence to convict. Those cases have been marked in the same way as any other case would be marked, on the basis that the Crown believes that there is sufficient evidence to convict.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

Katy Clark

Do you see success—or a major factor of success—as being higher conviction rates for rape? If the pilot led to higher conviction rates, would you see that as a successful outcome?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

Katy Clark

As the convener is aware, last year we heard from a lawyer from Norway, who was over in the Parliament. She was previously a defence agent but is now employed full time as a representative of victims. That system has developed in Norway in the past 50 years. When the cabinet secretary is in Norway, is it possible—obviously, it will depend on the rest of her commitments—for her to look at that system, to see whether anything can be learned?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

Katy Clark

If the pilot led to fewer convictions, would that be seen as a failure?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

Katy Clark

My first question was going to be very similar to the one that was asked by Pauline McNeill, so I will pick up where she left off. I was going to ask about how to evaluate a pilot with so little base data, and how that relates to the many and massive changes that the bill proposes.

As you know, one of the criticisms of the bill is that it might cause a range of big changes all at the same time. You have outlined that some of those decisions are still to be made, including on whether a pilot might take place in the new court, with some cases perhaps being within the pilot and others being outside it, or would happen after the abolition of the not proven verdict and the changes to jury majorities.

You have also not decided whether concurrent cases would be compared with one another or cases within the pilot would be compared with historical cases. We understand that there is very little data, but we have some—for example, about conviction rates in recent decades.

I appreciate that you are still thinking through much of that, but do you not think that Parliament should know which options will be taken forward? Do you not think that those decisions should be made during the passage of the bill and that, given the significance of many of the changes, Parliament should be very clear about which proposals will be taken forward?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 February 2024

Katy Clark

Given that we know that there are rape myths—we perhaps do not know exactly how they impact on every case or how often that is a massive factor—it is surely easier to educate and select judges, who are a relatively small group, in order to try to address rape myths in their decision making, than it would be to educate a new jury in every single rape case.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 February 2024

Katy Clark

Summary cases tend to lead to convictions, do they not?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 February 2024

Katy Clark

Mr Brown, do you accept that another potential criterion for the success of a pilot might be the experience of complainers? One of the issues that the committee has been very concerned about over a long time is the experience of complainers. Rape victims repeatedly say that they find it retraumatising to go through not just the process of the actual trial but the whole justice system. Do you accept that it is possible that taking the jury out of the process might impact on complainers’ experiences, and that that might be a criterion that we should consider?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 February 2024

Katy Clark

I understand that often the issue in a rape trial is consent.