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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 19 April 2025
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Displaying 912 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Emergency Release of Prisoners and Other Key Challenges in Scotland’s Prisons

Meeting date: 5 June 2024

Katy Clark

I understand that you are a governor at the women’s prison at Stirling, Paula. Is that correct?

Criminal Justice Committee

Emergency Release of Prisoners and Other Key Challenges in Scotland’s Prisons

Meeting date: 5 June 2024

Katy Clark

Clearly, a lot of money has been spent on those facilities, and we need to ensure that they are properly utilised, that the women who are there really need to be there and that that is the appropriate place for them.

The proposal is fairly arbitrary with regard to the particular cohort of prisoners who will be considered. Phil, if the issue that we are looking at is how to cut prison numbers, I have to say that the committee is struggling to know what types of prisoners really should not be in jail and should be dealt with in another way. As a representative of prison officers, do you have a view on that? Do you feel that a proportion of prisoners really should not be in prison and should be elsewhere instead? How do we categorise who those people might be?

Criminal Justice Committee

Emergency Release of Prisoners and Other Key Challenges in Scotland’s Prisons

Meeting date: 5 June 2024

Katy Clark

You have all referred to lessons learned from Covid and to lists. Do you have a clear understanding of what types of prisoners are likely to be released? Do you consider that those prisoners will be the least risky and those that are most likely to not reoffend when they get out?

I will go to Sarah Armstrong first. I have heard everything that you have said about the long-term measures that are needed. However, if you were to go down that release path, do you think that the approach that is being taken is targeting the prisoners who are most likely to be appropriate for release?

Criminal Justice Committee

Emergency Release of Prisoners and Other Key Challenges in Scotland’s Prisons

Meeting date: 5 June 2024

Katy Clark

I have a factual question to ask. We have some figures in relation to the prison population. I will put this to Lynsey Smith, because you seem to have the most information about what the Government is planning and intends, from its dialogue with you. Do you have an understanding of the numbers in the cohort who could potentially be considered, which is prisoners sentenced to four years or less who have not been convicted of a domestic abuse or sexual offence? Do you have a broad understanding of what that figure is? I do not think that we have been provided with it.

Criminal Justice Committee

Emergency Release of Prisoners and Other Key Challenges in Scotland’s Prisons

Meeting date: 5 June 2024

Katy Clark

So it might well be that a large number of those prisoners are not suitable, for whatever reasons. Your understanding is that it might not be 500 or 550 who are released and that it could be less. Is that correct? Is that your understanding?

Criminal Justice Committee

Emergency Release of Prisoners and Other Key Challenges in Scotland’s Prisons

Meeting date: 5 June 2024

Katy Clark

But will they be the people who will make the decisions? It is a legislative process, so it will not be assessed by people who work closely with the individual prisoners. It will be a more crude process. Is that your understanding?

Criminal Justice Committee

Emergency Release of Prisoners and Other Key Challenges in Scotland’s Prisons

Meeting date: 5 June 2024

Katy Clark

Exactly.

Criminal Justice Committee

Emergency Release of Prisoners and Other Key Challenges in Scotland’s Prisons

Meeting date: 5 June 2024

Katy Clark

I do not know whether Wendy Sinclair-Gieben might wish to comment on that. Is that something that you have considered?

Criminal Justice Committee

Emergency Release of Prisoners and Other Key Challenges in Scotland’s Prisons

Meeting date: 5 June 2024

Katy Clark

Prison is obviously a very expensive option. I fully understand that some people have to be there, and you have outlined some of them, but the committee is concerned about those individuals who could be dealt with in another—and likely cheaper—way. Psychiatric services, for example, might be a cheaper option. Is that something that your organisation is concerned about? Is the way in which we deal with individuals who go through the justice system a false economy?

Criminal Justice Committee

Emergency Release of Prisoners and Other Key Challenges in Scotland’s Prisons

Meeting date: 5 June 2024

Katy Clark

Does any of the other witnesses want to come in on that?