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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 21 December 2024
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Displaying 804 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 21 February 2024

Katy Clark

My question relates to the formal status of the DEFRA guidance, which is of course not referred to in the order. As Christine Grahame said, good law is clear law. We can expect that, in the criminal courts, defence agents will dispute whether a particular dog is an XL bully and will argue that it is not. Christine Grahame mentioned DNA testing. Can you confirm what the formal status of the DEFRA guidance is? Is the intention to continue to rely on guidance of that nature once the second SSI comes forward or will something more substantial be put together? How will that be clarified in relation to how the courts will interpret the legislation?

Criminal Justice Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 21 February 2024

Katy Clark

England is obviously ahead of us. Do you know whether any cases have been taken through as yet?

Criminal Justice Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 21 February 2024

Katy Clark

Minister, you have clearly been watching what has been happening down south, and it is clear that there have been a number of problems there. The ban on rehoming has had an impact on vets and on people at rehoming centres, who have been put in a position of being obliged to destroy healthy dogs that come into their care after the rehoming deadline. We have also been told that there have been difficulties in establishing muscle training at short notice, and the veterinary sector has said that it lacks sufficient capacity to carry out all the required neutering.

Given all the very practical issues that we have already seen in England and Wales, and that you say that you have already had many meetings with stakeholders in Scotland, do you envisage similar problems in Scotland after the order comes into effect later this week—if we vote in favour of it?

Criminal Justice Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 21 February 2024

Katy Clark

Is it saying that it can cope with what is about to happen? Given that you have had all those meetings, you must know that, as that is a very basic question, is it not? Are you assured that everything will be okay in Scotland, or do you think that there will be problems?

Criminal Justice Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 21 February 2024

Katy Clark

I am more concerned with the criminal courts and what is or is not an offence. I want strong legislation that is easily interpreted by a court. That is why I ask what the status of the guidance is. How will a court determine what is or is not an XL bully dog?

Criminal Justice Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 21 February 2024

Katy Clark

The order that has been put in front of us is astonishingly short. Will you confirm exactly what will happen later this week? The safeguards that relate to designated dogs will require XL bully dogs to be kept muzzled and on a lead. Beyond that, is anything happening later this week, or will the other things happen on 1 August?

Criminal Justice Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 21 February 2024

Katy Clark

If you were to, say, breed or give away an XL bully dog, you could be committing a criminal offence. Is that correct?

Criminal Justice Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 21 February 2024

Katy Clark

The problem with that is the insufficient clarity about what an XL bully dog is. We are being asked to vote on a very short order. Is there any definition in it? Do you not think that parliamentarians should have a definition before they vote?

Criminal Justice Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 21 February 2024

Katy Clark

You are mirroring the definitions down south.

Criminal Justice Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 21 February 2024

Katy Clark

I am sorry to interrupt, but we are short of time. What is the formal status of the DEFRA guidance? What approach will the courts take? Is this the strongest way to embed provisions in law? Perhaps your official will want to comment on that.